Hollywood is Dead
Hollywood is Dead
8 // Writer/Director - Max Klaiber
What happens when you return to your hometown to make a movie about toxic masculinity set in a remote cabin? Filmmaker Max Kleiber reveals the fascinating journey behind his debut feature "Rattlin Bog" - a satirical horror-comedy born from a COVID-era short film experiment that evolved into something much bigger.
Growing up in Northern California with no artists in his family, Kleiber initially pursued medicine before finally admitting his secret passion for filmmaking. After studying Communication (not Film) at Biola University and working various production jobs in Los Angeles, he made the strategic decision to shoot his feature in his hometown. The stunning Northern California landscapes provided million-dollar backdrops essentially for free, while community connections offered everything from locations to accommodations that would have been impossible to secure in LA.
Kleiber's funding approach proves particularly illuminating for aspiring filmmakers. Using WeFunder, an equity crowdfunding platform, he enabled community members to become actual investors in his film for as little as $100 - transforming local doctors, lawyers, and everyday supporters into stakeholders with skin in the game. This democratized approach bypassed traditional gatekeepers while creating a passionate support network.
The film itself examines male competition and power dynamics through the story of three friends at a secluded cabin, with Lauren caught between two men vying for dominance. Kleiber describes his approach as "whistling in the dark" - making audiences laugh during deeply uncomfortable situations. His experiences at regional film festivals like Sundial and Film Fort challenge conventional wisdom about the importance of major festivals, suggesting smaller venues often provide more meaningful connections.
Between creative projects, Kleiber sustains himself by tagging films for ShotDeck - a visual reference database - allowing him flexible income while absorbing cinematic techniques that enhance his directorial vision. His perspective on Hollywood's evolution suggests we're witnessing not just an ending but a transformation, with filmmaking talent now flourishing across multiple platforms from YouTube to branded content.
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Thank you. What's up everybody? It's Tyler. I'm back with a new episode of the Hollywood is Dead podcast. I got a good one for you guys today. I got a good one for you guys today, and it's not just me random raven pontificating and filling you in on all my life stuff. This is an actual interview, that's right, like I used to do back in the day. So, yeah, that's what I got for you. I interviewed my friend, max Kleiber. He's a filmmaker from Northern California. We both grew up up here, both left and we both returned to make movies. Real quick, before I get you guys into the interview, just wanted to give you a little update on what I've been working on. Let's see. I'll start with this.
Speaker 2:Last year, me and a couple partners took over the Sundial Film Festival, which is a long-running cornerstone of the film world up here in Northern California, and we had our first festival under us on March 22nd of this 2025. It was fantastic. It was everything that we wanted it to be, especially for the filmmakers. We had really good turnout. We brought the festival back to the Cascade Theater, which it hadn't been at the Cascade in a couple years, which it hadn't been at the Cascade in a couple years, primarily because of the pandemic. And then you know, cascade's huge, like you've got to fit a lot of people in there for it to feel not like you're just in a cavern. So we yeah, we filled it up. We showed 22 amazing films, short films, we were graced with a majority of the filmmakers of those films and we just had a night to, or actually a day of, celebrating independent cinema. It was fantastic. So did that. We're now preparing for our second iteration, which will be in 2026, in March. So stay tuned for updates about that.
Speaker 2:The other thing, that big development, is that the Dresden Sun is done. It is finished, it's for sale. So stick around for updates about that. In the future, once we get some distribution lined up, we'll have an idea of when the film will be available for you to watch, which is going to be amazing. It's going to be such a crazy cool moment to be able to share it with you all. Finally, I've seen it a couple times and my first reaction was to call Michael the director and just be like dude. It's a good movie. It's a good movie. Just be like dude, it's a good movie. It's a good movie. And I don't know like I wasn't surprised. I was just so elated. You know, it's been a couple of years of of hard fought work and to be able to get this thing finished it's not easy. So we'll be very, very excited to be able to share that with you, and I think on the next episode I'll be able to um, I'll be able to announce, uh, another project that I'm working on and I'm ridiculously excited about this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't yeah, it's film related, put it that way and it's Northern California related, and it's yeah, it's going to be an event, so I'll be dropping more information about that and probably talking about it incessantly in the in the next episodes, I'm sure. But yeah, man, that's it. I want to get you guys right into this interview. Thank you so much for listening and I hope you enjoy this conversation that I had with Max as much as I did and, if you can, please go and support him. Instagram is probably the number one spot, but check out Max Kleiber. All right, max, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:You know one of the reasons why I started the Hollywood is Dead podcast I wanted to talk to filmmakers and kind of discover a little bit about their journeys. You know what it takes to get a film made, whether it's independent or studio, a short or feature, or studio, a short or a feature. So I'm excited to talk to you about your new film, ratlin Bog, and give the listeners a little chance to get to know you a bit. Yeah, and we actually have something in common, so we're both from Northern California.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, and we both left Northern.
Speaker 2:California for Los Angeles to pursue this dream, and so you know we'll get started there. So what took you down south? Was it school work? A girl?
Speaker 1:yeah, no, it was, it was school. Yeah, absolutely, it was school I. So what's funny is I? So I went to um. You know, I grew up right in california, like that, through and through. I grew up and went to um low country school, uh, the country school, yeah, I went there. Uh, the church school hybrid from, like you know, kindergarten to, you know, eighth grade.
Speaker 1:And then I left for a public school, pacheco, because the kids that were going to pacheco were all going to anderson high school, which is the school that I was going to go to because my dad taught there, um, and I grew up playing sports with those guys and so went to Pacheco, went to Anderson for four years and then I wasn't actually getting any offers to any schools and it would have been purely academic based and merit based. I was not doing sports like that Some of my friends. So I was just kind of waiting to see what schools were going to give me, you know, money to go anywhere and at a specific time. It, kind of waiting to see what schools were going to give me, you know, money to go anywhere and at a specific time. It kind of, you know, as school's ending going into the summer I wasn't really getting uh offers and I was like, oh well, I think I'm just going to go to Simpson University, which is which was the local university, uh, in Reading, and I was like I'm just going to stay here and, um, you know, but at the time it was like late high school, so I was actually studying medicine, I was doing prereqs for I was working underneath my, my uncle, jim, who runs North Valley physical therapy, because I was thinking about doing what he was doing and potentially doing like nursing for medicine.
Speaker 1:But the whole time I was like secretly writing scripts and watching so many movies and watching so much tv. Um, but like it was like a secret dream, because I was like, well, I can't tell, you know, my, my dad's a, my dad's a teacher and my mom's a therapist and we have no artists in the family, like no one was pursuing art and anything like that. So the idea of like telling my parents, like, oh, I want to pursue film seemed like a fantasy. And then one day I just kind of cracked and I was like I, I know, I like had almost like a that's so raven moment of just like seeing into the future and knowing that if I pursued medicine like I was doing further, I would just be very unhappy, um, and so I just kind of, you know, sat them down as like, hey, I think I want to jump into film in some capacity. And that means I'm going to start looking at schools in LA and, like I mentioned, none of those schools in LA were picking up.
Speaker 1:And then finally, late, late in the game, I was kind of waiting around in the school Biola University in La Mirada, california, which is kind of like the edge of Los Angeles County going into Orange County, kind of near Disneyland. They hit me up with a really great scholarship that covered a lot of the school costs and I was like, well, there it is. There's my answer. I'm going to go down there. And I actually studied communication studies. So I didn't go into a film major, I was a com kid and I just pursued film on the side and just made friends with all the film kids and then that was my schooling for four years and just like making music videos, making little spec commercials and all these small things, narratives when you can, and stuff, and then just yeah, and then I graduated in December of 2019.
Speaker 1:And so January of 2020, you're bright eyed, bushy tailed, and you're like life's going to be great, this is going to be the coolest thing. And then COVID, then COVID and everything, but yeah, that's, that's a little bit how I started, so I don't know if you ever met him, but uh, uh, my, my roommate and guy, who you know I've been friends with for years, um, since, like little children, he also works with me a lot of the time and he's a reading kid as well. Um, and he went to like reading christian stuff, like that. We were childhood friends, but he's a, he's in film with me. We're both here just doing it. Um, he, he came out a couple years after I had gone to biola and we just started living together and making stuff together.
Speaker 2:So, oh yeah, reading kids man it's important to uh, to link up with, with someone. I feel I've had success. I linked up with my business partner, michael, and we just created really well together.
Speaker 1:That's cool man, that's good.
Speaker 2:So you didn't go to school to be a filmmaker.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you went down, was it?
Speaker 2:medical, or was it just kind of a general studies?
Speaker 1:Well, I was about to pursue, I was actually working on to pursue, I was about to. I was actually working on the application for the nursing application for Biola, um, and then I just kind of had this kind of like moment of like no, I think I should do com and I didn't want to do film as a major. I was just like that's just. I mean, I grew up listening to like Spielberg and all these people were saying like you don't need to have a film degree and I kind of took that to heart and I really I really do enjoy communication. I really was fascinated by the subject matter and the material and I think it just helped make me a better you know for lack of a better term communicator as a director, like on set and things like that. Like it really it really kind of emboldened, kind of these aspects that were conducive to the filmmaking process and really helped the filmmaking process. But yeah, like I didn't, I just saw some of the classes that the film majors were taking. I was like, well, you could just kind of like go out and do it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like you know, and it's like's like so even funny enough, last night I was at, I got invited to the cma mixer, uh, which is the, the cinema media arts mixer for biola, and so it's like all these film kids and they're like looking at me, like who is this guy? And I'm like I got, I was invited by one of the former professors who, um, he was actually my first film professor, uh, at the school and he really still, to this day, really believes in me, um, and so he invited me out and took me off the waiting list and stuff, like he's like no, you're, you're, you're a film guy like you can go. Um, so, yeah, people like that believing in you and really supporting you and whatnot. But, yeah, I literally just got back from that last night, which is hilarious that's so cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's great man, that's really nice. Um so, uh, what ended up bringing you and this is like a big thing for me, because I'm such a believer in film, uh, and you don't necessarily have to be, you know in la? Or israel or new mexico, truly. And so what, uh, what brought you? Brought you back home to make your films. Is this your first feature?
Speaker 1:Well, first feature as a writer and director, but I think like third or fourth, as like department and crew and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:But this is yours.
Speaker 1:Yeah, this is like mine. The first real feature I ever worked on was I was kind of a producer role, mainly doing covid. It was such an indie film in like 2020, like late 2020, early 2021, something like that, and then did a couple there, but, correct, this is the first one that it's like. I wrote this, directed it, produced this. This is mine um, it's the debut and I going back home was two.
Speaker 1:Two main reasons is I am obsessed with and this is something that you and I've talked about a lot of and I've talked about with a lot of Reading, filmmakers and the film commission and all these people Northern California is stunning and I think that's the thing that I took for granted as a kid. And then you revisit it, you know, growing up, and you're like, oh my gosh, it's like the low, like some of these locations are million dollar locations and they're just in people's backyards. Yeah, and I remember when I was writing the story, because the the story of the rattling bug started as a short film and we filmed the short film in idle wild down south and I was walking around idle wild and I was like I mean, this kind of looks like mount shasta, like there is like elements of it, but it just didn't have that same I I don't know, it's like untangible, it's like it's hard to you just have to be there, um, and be right next to mount shasta and that kind of northern california area to be like. Oh yes, this is like an other world type thing. And I, when I wrote the full feature, I was was like I think this has got to be in Northern California and also, you know, I'm a sports guy.
Speaker 1:I do believe in home field advantage, I do believe in this idea that your own turf kind of creates calmness and peace because you know that you have the support. And so for me it was like, you know, going to Northern California, like I knew I had you, I knew I had other Tyler, I knew I had my parents, I knew I had my friends, I knew I had Kevin in his context, kevin Cooley was our camera operator for the feature film, who's a Reading DP and does great work, Really talented and hasn't been doing it for very long.
Speaker 1:But he's like so Unbelievable. Well, he saved our butts multiple times on on the set. But, yeah, so people like that, right, like these kind of like home field advantage people were. I knew that we could get food, I knew that we can get resources that could save a lot of the cost, um, of just things that we just wouldn't be able to have.
Speaker 1:Support, the same support in la, where, you know, like the fact that even my parents who you know, my dad's retired and my mom's a work from home, uh, therapist now, so they had free time and they were like, well, what can we do? And they were just, like, you know, help putting up tents and cleaning out RVs and stuff, which they didn't have to do. But it was like the fact that, like, we had people like that and then my, um, their family friends, but they run the dunsmuir railroad park, um, or they did, they they recently moved, but, um, they helped us with, like, uh, housing, essentially, like they gave us like really great discounts and they were like, how can we help? And we actually shot a bunch of our kind of exterior locations on their property and they were like, yeah, just film here, I think it's fine. So, like the fact that we had access to just beautiful things like that was like, oh, only in, only at home. So I really leaned on kind of the home field advantage of wanting to shoot up there.
Speaker 1:And then again, you know, our film was a cabin in the woods, kind of like a satirical horror comedy. And you know, northern California just has that charm and has that look, and we shot it in October so the leaves were changing and it was kind of getting orange and I mean, I'm a sucker for anyone who's been in Northern California during the fall, to me I think is one of the most stunning times ever. Um, I love the way the light looks, I love the way the the sun sets and the trees kind of look, and especially as they're changing colors, uh, and I really wanted to capture that uh on film. So that's, that's kind of a lot of the uh reasons. Uh, I don't know, you know it's it's a little.
Speaker 1:It's a little scary kind of going on onto your first feature and I think again, having that comfort of knowing that you've got a support of people around you, just kind of like made going to set a lot, you know, easier and calmer.
Speaker 2:Yeah so really makes you focus on your pre-production, because you're like oh my gosh, we're not in la. So if something goes awry, we don't have yeah to you know a new set of lenses right, here Was there anything like that, that happened.
Speaker 1:Thankfully nothing of the breaking or malfunctioning. But to your point, the conversation was like yeah, my DP, andy Aragon, he very much, oh my gosh, he literally brought that up because we rented from old fast glass uh and media box, uh, those two um companies and we literally andy andy fought me. He's like we have to stay in la, because if a lens to like what you just said, if a lens goes down, we can just like drive and go get it. But if it goes down in reading like how can we ship it? What's the? Is there even lens rental companies up in reading that like would have an equivalent or someone who could fix like is that even possible? So to your point, it was like, yeah, it was like all right, so we just gotta like double down and be 100 sure and caution and play it safe and you know you have the lens in your hand before.
Speaker 2:Truly, yeah, be very careful.
Speaker 1:Each transfer is super careful. Yeah, take a little time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, that was uh, that was a big thing, you know, even for us, for dresden sun, you know it's like and we had yeah, just you know truckloads of stuff and we're just like man, this better, everything better go right, or yeah, we're gonna be in some toast, but you know what there is um, isn't it lensrentalcom now? Um you can get them overnighted like whoa yeah, and so I. I think you have to pay a lot, but yeah lensrentalcom.
Speaker 2:I know that's crazy this is not sponsored, but if they want to, it's all good. Yeah, that's cool. I'm gonna look that up, yeah, so what's cool is it seems like there's a lot of um what do you call it? Uh, support for indie filmmakers. Yeah, and so people are developing these things that make it so that you can film wherever, because this is not something that you could filmed in los angeles on a soundstage, right, like you filmed. All practical it would have been, you know, 15 million dollars for, yeah, build sets like that and you got stuff for free and, uh, it's pretty cool man, free and super discounted.
Speaker 1:I mean, I'm I'm sure you, you, you know this, having filmed in northern california is like it's still kind of a rarity to film in northern california where people are just like you're doing what, yeah, and so I think we had a lot of that where people are just kind of a rarity to film in Northern California, where people are just like you're doing what?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so I think we had a lot of that where people are just kind of more willing to help without any sense of like return, because they're still like, oh, like you're filming, I'm okay, yeah, just go over there and start shooting and, like in LA, it's like, well, where's your permits, where's this, where's my credit, where's my payment?
Speaker 1:Like.
Speaker 1:And I think that there is such a disconnect because, you know, people are aware of what you can gain out of filming, while in, like northern california, they don't care, like it's like it's because it's not part of their everyday world, and so to them, you know, to most of the people up north, it's still like there's a mystique around filmmaking still, and I think there's like a, an air of like, oh, this is like people want to be up here and film and do stuff, and we had a lot of that of just people who, I mean, there was a while where there was a, there was a bog that we found, um, because we actually shoot in an actual bog that we later found, yeah, and, and we, we found later it's like right outside the dunsmuir railroad park, um, but for a time there was one along this kind of like creek, on one of the trails, uh, near, uh, shingletown, and um, there was a guy who was out there helping us and he literally I told him I was like if this hole, if the bog was deeper, that you could like actually sink into it and like put your waist down, this would be perfect.
Speaker 1:And he literally was like figuring out how to get an excavator to like dig a hole out for us, like free of charge. He's like I'll just do it myself, like if you guys need it, like let me know and I'll bring it up here one day. And so it's like it's guys like, and we ended up we didn't end up doing it, of course, but like the fact that he was willing and able to do it is like okay, like that's, you're not gonna get that in los angeles really like rarity, are you?
Speaker 2:you know we we had, um, a couple of those locations happen like that, where it's like listen, I know this is a big ask, but you know we need this. Uh, this railroad spur that is not working anymore and you're an industrial. You know complex here, but can we film here? You know there's gonna be about 50 people. I'm gonna be up front with you, there's gonna be. This is not a small you know, but it's you know, and sure enough. They were like yeah, absolutely you know and then so cool we had a ranch up in whitmore.
Speaker 2:This is the nightmare part is we had a ranch up in whitmore that we were going to film at and we were already trying to wrap our heads around the logistics of moving the trucks and trailers and stuff up there. It was like 30 minutes from Reading and the guy calls me the night before we're supposed to be up there.
Speaker 2:And he's like you know I do kind of. I was thinking, you know, like I'm only getting, you know, like 150 bucks or something, whatever it was, and he tried to shake me down for some money and I was like you know like we, this is, don't got it, yeah do this and and I could tell he was a little little tipsy, so when you're dealing with country folk.
Speaker 2:But um, we ended up having to find another location in less than 12 hours and we ended up making it work and it totally works for the film. Indie film and it was a guy that was just like yeah, absolutely man. And it was right down the street from the studio building that we had and he was like, yeah, that's cool, no problem. Glad to help.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like crazy, yeah, yeah we ended up getting a a grocery store in Bella Vista. Oh, nice, like crazy. Yeah, yeah, I ended up getting a, uh, a grocery store in bella vista uh, oh nice, yeah, the mighty, it's called mighty fine foods and it's this country kind of grocery store is huge. But um yeah, the guy was like sure, I'll leave the door open. I was like, uh, do you? How do you lock everything? He's like no, the back door will be open, you guys can just go through there. I was like crazy, geez.
Speaker 2:Man like this is a grocery store, you know, a proper grocery store yeah but no, that's cool man, and I apologize, I didn't let you um give a little synopsis of of your film. Oh no, yeah no yeah, that'd be.
Speaker 1:It's so many people are gonna be like, oh, that's really cool, but what are they talking about? Yeah um yeah, no.
Speaker 1:So the ratlin bog is, which is, uh, some people might be familiar with the um irish folk song that it's kind of based off of or named after. I should say um, but it was. It started as a short film back in like 2021, 2022, and it's essentially a group of friends. We're supposed to go up to this secluded cabin in the woods together and only one half of the group is able to make it up. Um, and that half of the group includes, uh, three characters named lauren krillin, lauren, chris and phil, and lauren is clearly the only woman of the group. Chris is her childhood friend and Phil is kind of a more recent friend from college, and they all go up there. They're like, okay, well, our friends aren't going to make it up, so like let's just have a good time, just the three of us. Then, if that's what it seems like it's going to be, we paid for the location anyway, we paid for the weekend. Let's just you know, we have all this food, we have all these drinks like let's just have a good time. And a good time is not had. So essentially it's very much a traditional kind of three act structured film. Like I very much do not. I don't shy away from showing the audience that, hey guys, this is act one, this is act two, this is act three, and essentially it's each act going in descending Lauren, who.
Speaker 1:The film is very much a from the perspective of Lauren, and or it's kind of a film about her being stuck in the middle of these two men who are kind of dominating for control and for power and for being the alpha. You know, I grew up kind of in a with a bunch of rowdy, rambunctious friends and I was kind of the guy that was like, not, you know, I grew up kind of in a with a bunch of rowdy, rambunctious friends and I was kind of the guy that was like, not, you know, as rowdy and rambunctious as they were, and so I kind of had this great observant role of just like the behavior of men in my friend group and I was like, oh my gosh, like we are always kind of like, you know, you know measuring each other to see who's kind of the alpha and who's the best one, who's the smartest, who's the toughest, who's the strongest, who's the most athletic. There was always this kind of like game being played with one another, whether it was subtle or non-subtle, because sometimes it was completely subtle and it was all in like looks and smart quips, and then sometimes it was completely unsubtle, which is like my friend over here takes off his shirt and is literally yelling at the other guy saying like fight me. And it's like, oh, okay. So a little bit of both and I just was really fascinated with that, especially with, like you know, the the kind of way the things are kind of going and, um, it was so funny.
Speaker 1:I, we were working on the film during um, you know, not to be uh, political about it, but when when biden and trump were doing their kind of presidential debates at the time, because we filmed this in october of 2024, so it was kamala had gotten the yeah, kamala had gotten the ticket where we were going into the election. We actually were on set during election night, but before that, of course, biden was on the ticket and it was them arguing over golf scores and they're like no, I could shoot and I was geeking out. I was like this this is what I'm this is what the movie this is what we're filming Like.
Speaker 1:this is quite literally what the film is getting at. It's like guys, the nuclear codes and foreign relations are on the line and you guys are arguing over who shoots a better under. I can't believe we're actually doing this right now. Like even at 70, 80 years old, men still kind of behave this way, um, and I was really kind of fascinated by that.
Speaker 1:So our film is a satirical kind of like psychological horror comedy and the reason I say all of those different adjectives to describe it is like yeah, it kind of behaves as all of them at some point. Of course, people can judge on their own time. I think it's really funny and I do not shy away from it supposed to be supposing to be funny. I had a good a friend watched it recently and they gave a great kind of way to describe it, where it's like there's a lot of whistling in the dark and I was like, oh, what is that turn? What does that mean? And they were like you try throughout the movie, you try and make us laugh in the middle of the most uncomfortable situations, and I was like, oh, that's OK, that's a great way to describe this film.
Speaker 2:It's that awkward moment that you can't help but laugh.
Speaker 1:Yeah, because there's no way. There's no way that they're doing this and I'm. But the music is playing in a certain way and you are sitting there just like I feel kind of sick to my stomach because of what they're fighting about. But a joke is dropped in the middle. A great thing that I was telling some of my friends is like you remember, like in class when your teacher was like really pissed off and just like lambasting you guys for the way you treated like a substitute or because someone said something, and then you like look over at your friend and they're making like a face at you and you're like I can't this, this moment is so serious and if I laugh I'm in so much trouble.
Speaker 1:That's kind of the movie's vibe essentially, where it's like I shouldn't be laughing at this, I don't think, but like the movie's trying to make me laugh in the middle of like something really intense. Um, so that's essentially the, the tone and the genre, so to speak. But it's very much like a cabin in the woods, you know, horror story in regards to like familiarity that the audience might have with um plot lines and where things go and stuff like that. Um, so I don't, I don't, I very much don't shy away with um the tropes and the cliches of the genre I like to. I want to play into them and kind of subvert them in some way.
Speaker 2:I hope that explains. Yeah, sometimes those things are important because it's like, as viewers, it's fun to be familiar with how a structure of film is and where the filmmaker isn't trying to trick you or, um, you know, but you can just sit there and enjoy it and you know, and be entertained. Um and uh, that's great, man, it sounds good. Um, how far along are you guys right now?
Speaker 1:yeah, so we're in the um, we're finishing up, uh, sound and music, uh, so we've um got the final cut going. We are. We are essentially uh aiming to have I head out to off my, my sound designer is in austin and we're doing a mix session in like kind of mid-august and that hopefully we'll get all that will have sound music, all the things, and we're doing that kind of like final theater mix in in mid-august, um, and then color we'll pick, we'll do color right from there. Um, so hopefully we're looking at a kind of september, early october, uh final picture, you know, and then from then on it's it's the game, right, it's the, the sales, the distribution, the festivals that are not in your hands.
Speaker 1:No, yeah, all the fun stuff so, but yeah, we're, we're, we're on the final, we're on the final leg. I'm, I'm really ready for it to be um, done. I'm, I'm sick and tired of watching it. I'm sick, I can't. I I'm sure you were the same way with Dresden, right when it's like you're just like I don't know, I don't know what I'm looking at anymore, like it's become so we're sharing it with with some industry friends, just so that there's other eyes on it.
Speaker 2:But I will be, I will be transparent about this. So my, my biggest thing and being involved with the film was as a producer, and I also acted in it. But since we got into Post, post has been a little bit of a nightmare. And so, and you know, one of the biggest things and I think this is good for a lot of filmmakers to hear, probably is that Michael took on the role of VFX producer, post producer. He mixed it himself, he colored it himself, he edited it. We just got the all clear on our QC and so, you know, the film is locked at this point, but he took on so many things and it's been in post now for what? Almost two years and so, but I he wore a lot of hats and so I'm I have to give him all the credit on this.
Speaker 2:it's like you know, he hired people, um, uh, on fiber of all places, to do vfx and and it was right when he found some really good people right. When, um, the studios went, uh, they struck right. So vfx work was, was you know, people are just clamoring but what, what a lot of people don't know is is even the studios higher out from like Pakistan and India, and so and they all are on Fiverr and you can go look for VFX people on Fiverr and you know, then you end up working with one of. They have like VFX houses over there, so they're built in modelers, they have. You know everything. And so you know he, he organized all that. I mean, it was it was him a lot.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a lot.
Speaker 2:And so and now he and he had to do all of his own QC. Like we sent it off to the company and they gave us notes on the pixel that's missing in the top left corner and he's like, okay, but there's still 1400 of these you know like where are these? And so um, it was a lot. So kudos to you guys. You know it's like it's it's not easy, but you know sometimes you have to wear a lot of hats.
Speaker 1:So, oh my gosh, yeah, I mean that's that's kind of the um, I mean that's the name of the game of any indie film, right. Like I don't think I'd be speaking out of turn for most indie film productions because it looks differently like you just mentioned, but like even for you, right, where it's like producing, acting as well, like you are already built into the machine as a person who is wearing multiple hats, and I think that that's just something that if I was to talk to new upcoming indie filmmakers or students or whoever it's like, kind of know where your strong suits are in other of the multiple hats. Like, are you a director that can also production design? Like a really good or really good at art or costumes? Like, for example, I have a buddy in um toronto who's a brilliant filmmaker, great writer, director, but his background is actually in props, in art direction and wardrobe, so that's something that he has like a huge hand in that he doesn't have to hire out as much. So he made a great short film that involved a kind of like a human skin suit and a a wolf uh, a wolf like puppet, I guess you could say. Or a wolf kind of like creature, uh, design, and he did it himself, but he was also the writer and director. So it's like one of those things where it's like, oh, he's like building films around his other strong suits, um, which is great, right.
Speaker 1:So it's like even for this one, for for bog, my background comes in production, like, in regards to producing things, I came from a terribly indie background. I've never had a budget, um, every short film I've ever worked on was a budget of zero, or me and jordan or whoever's involved, his money. We never cracked a thousand dollars on any of our budgets, and so it's like how to be frugal and how to kind of like, really like, like, keep your money and make sure that it's used sparingly and wisely. And so when I knew that I was jumping into the feature, my brain was already. I wrote it almost from a producer's perspective of like, what can I save money on? How can I know you know no-transcript in mind, like your job as the writer should be to dream and to shoot for the stars and shoot big, or else you're kind of like, you know, you're kind of, um, uh, stifling yourself and kind of subduing your voice, and I hear that and I also agree with that. But I do think that for me I already, because, for example, I don't know if I mentioned this to you and I haven't mentioned it here, but the rat, the ratlin, bob, was not a feature film in regards to, uh, uh, what I thought it was going to be.
Speaker 1:It started as a covet experiment. So, uh, three friends in college I tried so hard to do this thing a night of plays, essentially, which is, three writer, directors, write and direct three separate plays using the same actors. Uh, in one night, and they all, the plays just kind of cycle after each other using the same actors. They're playing different characters, yada, yada, yada. No one went for it. Everyone was like no, and I was like, okay, but what if they were short films? And then I got some interest. Some of my filmmaker friends were like that sounds interesting, and so we tried to get it going. It was going to be my senior thesis and it didn't go. And COVID happens.
Speaker 1:And then my friend, who actually just came off of her first feature film, is like I got the directing bug again. I want to do some more stuff with directing. How can we do something together, like what's something that we can kind of make? And I pitched her this idea and she's like, okay, that sounds great. And so we came up with like a game, essentially, which is what is? One location, three to four actors, all the same actors that could play different roles in each of these short films, and you utilize the same team and you essentially just go to one location and film something. And so there was like six of us that went up to a cabin in Idyllwild, filmed three short films in like four days, five days, and then we all edited it ourselves and did our own thing.
Speaker 1:And then mine finished and I was not going to do anything with it, it was just going to be a directing exercise and a couple industry friends were like, oh no, this is actually kind of interesting. Like you should potentially think about sending it places, had no idea where to send it to. Because I was like, first of all, this is not going to Sundance, this is not going to Tribeca, this is not. It's too, it's not that, um, but there's other great festivals, right, and even the one that you're wearing on your shirt, like Sundance, like there's other local, regional festivals that like would probably be interested in something like this. Um, and I was like, okay, and one of the places I went to was Nifty uh, which is uh in Seattle, and it it's for 25 and under, and this was, you know, four years ago or something like that three years ago. So I was like just at the cusp of the aging out bracket and I went and it's a bunch of people my age, you know, and younger, who are like making great stuff. And one of the people watched Rattlin' Bob and was like you should think about maybe doing something more with this, like maybe you should make it weirder or maybe you should kind of like I feel like you could kind of like get go somewhere with this thing. And I didn't think anything of it. And then, a couple months passed by, this was April of 2022, about like a month or two passed by and I was like and I just started thinking of new moments and new scenes and I was like, oh, I could have done that. And then, all of a sudden, I had like five additional scenes and I was like, well, maybe this is a feature film. And then, december of 2022, the first draft was finished.
Speaker 1:Feature film would probably be something on the level of like accretion, which is a film directed by uh, tradeward schultz back in, like I think around 2015, um, super small, like 30 000 budget, filmed with his friends in his, like, childhood home or his texas home or wherever he's from, and his aunt is an actress and he casted her and it was super small, small, super homegrown, based off a short film that he had done prior, and I was like, looking at that film, I was like I'll probably end up making something like that. I don't think I'm going to have a get-out first feature film right when it's backed by Blumhouse with big names and multimillion-dollar budget already attached. I was like, no, I'm probably going to do the bootstrap thing. I was like, no, I'm probably going to do the bootstrap thing.
Speaker 1:And, sure enough, when the feature was written, I was like, yeah, this is like already a built in kind of bootstrap story. It is kind of just three friends at a cabin in the woods, very playlike in structure, and leaning into that to kind of save a buck. So, yeah, our production budget ended up being close to, like you know, 67,000 or something like that, which was a miracle. Most of it came in so last second and miraculously but yeah, I mean, it was all home grown, it was all WeFunder.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I heard, I read that that you used WeFunder. What kind of is like a uh, indiegogo sort?
Speaker 1:of thing, absolutely. So I took we funder from the filmmaker, jim cummings, and kind of his protégés, so to speak, a lot of the people he kind of put a lot of people on to we funder, and ben wiesner, who is his producer. Um, I had talked to him and he was like you should do we funder too. And I said okay, because I knew when I I knew when I made my first feature film, I was like, coming from, you know, when you're in college and you're looking at all these students, they're making these short films and they're costing, like you know, $10,000 to $30,000. And I was like, man, if I had $30,000, I'm just going to go make a feature, like I don't need to make a short film, like. And so I knew like I'm never going to ask for money for a project until I can promise the, the promise of a potential return, you know. And then we funder comes about and I was like, oh, that's something that has a built-in uh policy for this idea of return.
Speaker 1:Um, so I kind of studied jim and this other great director, thomas percy kim, with his film isle child that he also put on we funder, and I just studied what they were doing and kind of emailed them and like, okay, so what is this thing? But correct, it's kind of it's the. It's the same thing as like an indiegogo or kickstarter, but instead of donation based, it's investor based. So it's built in contracts that you, the filmmaker, build for the investor. So when they give you money for the film, they're signing and they can read through a digital contract which is like this is what will happen to your money. This is how percentages work. This is like if the film makes a return yeah the waterfall agreement, like it's.
Speaker 1:It's, it's pretty standard stuff, um, and what's great is our, our, our loc is a one-off loc. It's the ratlin bog llc. It lives and dies with the film, yeah, um, but there's ways in the contract, for example, like if you have a production company I know you have, I believe like archetype yeah, archetype pictures.
Speaker 1:Yep, so in, we funder, you could set it up. So it's like hey, this is like almost like a rolling basis where it's like the, the llc that the film is listed under isn't just for x movie, it's not just like the llc is not going to die with this thing. This thing is actually the. The money that we're that is coming into this thing is to help build. Llc, for future development and for future things.
Speaker 2:You have the option of doing the one off. Like you know Rattlenbog LLC. It's like there's the one off there and then the money stays with that one project. But you have the option for your main production company being funded, kind of like legion m a little bit, where they have the buy-ins right yes, absolutely, and I think legion m does do work with we funder too oh interesting okay, um, I believe I've seen some other projects on there, but but to your point, yeah, if anyone knows what legion m is or wants to that up, it is essentially the same thing.
Speaker 1:It's this kind of crowdsourced equity based thing where anyone now becomes the investor, right, so like. So I mean, I mean, this is a great podcast to share this because it's like this is the Hollywood is dead podcast, right. So like, so much of the time, even to your point of what we mentioned earlier about like you don't need to be in la anymore. You're so right, like the fact that I'm pretty. I'm like 99 sure that well over half of our investments came from reading and it came from like the northern california area.
Speaker 1:I was doing the sam ramey and coen brothers strategy. I was hitting up doctors and lawyers and dentists and local business people, local investors. I I hit up, um, uh, the norcal like investment group that's up there and stuff like that. Yeah, um, so like I'm hitting up all these like northern california businesses and stuff and most of our money came from the northern california area and so it's like, yeah, that's, I don't need to be in la to do that. Granted, a lot of our crew and a great material also came from la. So, like it was that perfect. Like la northern california hybrid investment where, like, a lot of great materials were coming from la, a lot of the money came from northern california.
Speaker 1:Um, so, yeah, it was like, but like it's the fact that these people in northern california, who might never have had an investment portfolio involving movies, can now jump into the entertainment space purely because they have $100, because that's the minimum to invest on WeFunder your name's in a movie or your credits in a movie or, at the very least, if your name or credits not in it, if the movie makes money, you can check your, your, your, your WeFunder wallet down the road and all of a sudden there's investment, your, your investments, back in there and it's like, oh my gosh, like what are the odds of that? So that's that's the kind of cool thing is like it's accredited or non. Buddy, who is a non? He's just a guy who works at you know such and such place and he's like, oh, I got a hundred dollars and hands it over and now he's an investor in a feature film and it's like that kind of no red tape, no kind of like veil, um, and no kind of like um, I don't know like just no kind of like gatekeeping.
Speaker 1:I guess, as a part of that process, is really fascinating and something that I knew was going to be needed to make this feature. I just needed just like the love and support of just the local friends and family community, and that only was kind of possible with something like, you know, wefunder or Kickstarter some sort of crowd-based equity platform.
Speaker 2:That's so cool, it's like the fact that something like that exists today, because I have people that ask me all the time. It's like, you know, should I go to film school? Should I go to LA to pursue this? And part of me is like, yeah, because it's. It's like at least to meet people and build a uh, a group of people that you can create with.
Speaker 2:But you know, it's like, do it cheaply, like if you're going to be in hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt at film school, I would say, no, don't do that. Just go to la, or, or go to Atlanta or, you know, oklahoma or something, and just get in with people and meet and collaborate, and then you can come back here, you know, and and utilize your connections that you have at home, because it's like, it's so strange, it's like I feel like we're so lucky to be, you know, from reading, because the community is large enough to have a really diverse um, you know population and you have people that that love films, like we had. We had people that were just so excited that we were doing this, you know, and so, so, so supportive, and without that, you know, it's like it's really difficult to get anything like this done, but with that you can do stuff for very inexpensively and you can utilize your connections uh down in LA uh, and also you know equipment and all that stuff. But equipment's not so important, because everybody has everything now.
Speaker 1:So yeah, yeah, but even, but, even to your point too, of like community. I think that's the thing that I I I do think that that's such a that is such an important like thing to discuss with like upcoming filmmakers or new filmmakers or whoever students, whoever it is is like that, the luckiness of having like a community to rely on, because that's the thing is like yeah, I'm still friends with a lot of like the kids that I grew up with, like there's still that kind of like built-in support system of people that I can rely on emotionally and like you know, who still support like they saw the transition, like they saw me want to take the leap into film and like have supported me every step of the way. And then even to your point too, of like you know, the sundial Film Festival this last year is just proof of like there is a community want and support system for local and non-local filmmakers. Like that place was packed to the house, yeah, and it's like that was crazy to see. I remember just sitting in the back during the 7 pm showing and just like looking around at like a packed house and kind of going like, oh my gosh, like this many people from my like because I was.
Speaker 1:I film in my home, like film when I was a kid growing up, was like nothing. It was like you know, we had valley 11 and the, the two reading theaters, and two of those theaters shut down. So now there's just the one, yeah, and I was like this many. So to see that many faces just be like, oh, there's a local film festival, and to actually show up, it's like that regional aspect I think is an I just listen if you're interested. The no Film School podcast actually just did a section a couple weeks ago, I think, now about the importance of regional local film festivals, about the importance of like regional local film festivals and like they kind of. They kind of contrasted them against like the south by southwest. So the tribe that was kind of that was going to be a question that I was going to ask you is you know, are film festivals relevant for filmmakers?
Speaker 2:you know, because a lot of people are just like gosh. You know, it's like it seems to just be a moneymaker for the film festival and I can tell you that's not true but we're a small regional film festival, but it's like South by or Tribeca.
Speaker 2:I kind of have an issue with not South by but Tribeca. It's like good luck getting into something like that. It's like they're showing these huge studio films and it kind of takes it away from from us being able to, uh, have an opportunity, opportunity to really break out with a great film. But on the other hand, if you make a great film, that's undeniable, then it will it will get in so is there?
Speaker 2:is there a gatekeeping aspect? Maybe, but is there a um, is there a sentiment among filmmakers? Almost like you know, I, I deserve to get into tribeca or some other big film festival, and so they're. They're just not taking accountability for the fact that, well, I didn't make something good enough to get into it. You know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and listen, I'll say this. So March and we talked a little bit about it because you guys at Sundial were the second place I went to so I essentially went to three festivals this last March I went to South by Southwest, I went to Sundial and I went to south by southwest, I went to sundial and I went to film fort in idaho. And what was the crazy experience about all three of them is I kind of got to see three separate tiers of festivals because film, film forts, this mid-tier, were like. Some of the filmmakers were there I had just ran into and met at south by southwest and now my film is playing alongside them at Film Fort and it's like whoa, this is like a Boise Idaho film festival. And I think the fascinating thing about South by is I was there and South by is also somewhat turning into this kind of corporatized idea of like okay, so we're doing like vanity screenings of the studio with seth rogan's tv show which, just like got like 20 something emmy nominations.
Speaker 1:The show did not need to play at south by to earn that recognition, it was there just to have it so that screening slot could have went to another indie film or another indie television pilot or to a short film or a couple slots of short films, but instead it's a vanity screening for this apple tv plus show. And there was, your apple paid them to screen it, which is exactly why south by takes it, because south by, at the end of the day, is like, yeah, we, we also need money to pay the, the volunteer, the people, and the, the food and the, the like, everything that goes on. It's such a business and and so, yeah, you're kind of there, and even some of the indie films that we were watching, it was like you kind of find out the people and it's like, oh, they're here because they've known the programmer for so and such time, and so there is a lot of gatekeeping and who knows what that gets into these things. But sometimes the way you stay in is because is because you become like a legacy person at these places, right where the first short film or the first feature film you made was that undeniable thing that you had mentioned, where it's like, of course it's going to get in, it's so good, um, and then now you have at least a leg up against other people on your subsequent uh submissions, because it's like they already know you. You're a familiar face, they liked you when you were there, they like what you do, they're supporting you. So at least, at the very least, you're going to get those first looks, yeah, and potentially on to the next round, while, as someone who they don't know, has no connections to south by or to any of these festivals, are probably going to start kind of going down and down the the list a little bit.
Speaker 1:And so there is an importance, I think, to the, the regional, local film festivals and kind of building, because, at the end of the day, all all you're trying to do, I think, in film is like build an audience, and some people think that that comes from festivals, and they're right, because maybe their film is that perfect festival film where it's like the best plan of attack for the film's outreach and connecting to audiences is through kind of going, pouring the film around to these other festivals.
Speaker 1:Well, as some people make films, it's like well, your film's not really a festival film, you know, and at least festivals as far as like the big ones, go right. Well, your film is not really a festival film, you know, and at least festivals as far as like the big ones go right, like your film is not a tribeca film or it's not a sundance film, and knowing that. But your film is a film quest film right, because it's super genre, it's super sci-fi or it's super. Or your film is like a uh, a fantasia or fantastic fest film right, like these kind of genre film festivals that are still uh sit gis, which is like, I think, in spain or brazil um, yeah yeah, it's like these are.
Speaker 1:These are festivals that are like geared towards a specific part of your movie. So I think I think there is an importance, because you never know who's going to be at these things and sees your work. So I think there's a small, there is a level of importance to it. But the name of the game is does your film represent the interest of that festival? And if it does or doesn't, regardless, do you have someone in your film, whether it's an actor or whether it's a producer or whether it's like a sales agent, who's fighting on your behalf to message these programmers that they may have a connection to and say, look, give my film a chance, I'm kind of speaking on behalf of this filmmaker or this film, and that's kind of the battle. You know, I'll speak on behalf of my film. That's the battle that we have always against.
Speaker 1:Our film is like there really is no one on our team that, um, you know, we don't, we're not, we're not executive produced by, like a special name or someone like that.
Speaker 1:Who who can speak to the behalf, and we have three no-named actors.
Speaker 1:So we already know that we're gonna have a major uphill battle at these kind of festivals, right where, even if our film was good enough to get into like a TIFF or Tribeca or South there, whatever it is, they're probably going to pick someone that they have connection to and who's vouching on their behalf, because if they're the same quality but this other person has all the connections and the friendships, they're going to pick that film instead. So, yeah, you're right, it goes back to undeniability and it goes back to connections. But at the same time, I think we also live in a digital age and digital marketing is such a huge thing and I've seen very successful films that didn't really do too much at the festival circuit and then it got like a release and now it's picking up because someone made a great TikTok edit about a scene in their movie or something like that, and it's like oh, like, oh, that's, you can rent that on amazon, you can rent that on, you know, apple or whatever it is.
Speaker 1:Um, and so I think I think there is a uh, this kind of duality of like knowing your film. If there are festivals to know about, is it touring the regional space and like making, because to me, to me, I had more fun at sundial and at film fort than I did at south by and, granted, I didn't have a, a project in south by, but I was there with people who did and I so I got to kind of like walk around with them as they were kind of doing the circuit of their stuff. And there South by is just so large and so big now that it's hard to feel If the reason you're going to some of these festivals is for real, genuine connections, you're going to find that more so at the locals and the regionals rather than the big ones. The big ones are you want to knock those off the list if your goal is to get bought or get seen or get noticed in some capacity. But hey, even then I have a buddy.
Speaker 1:I just, I just was talking to her the other day, met her at south by. She had a that's the film that she was there with was uh, at south by, and before that it was at sundance. So two of like potentially arguably some of the biggest festivals you know, at least in the us, um, and she has not found any representation or any managers or any like nothing, like nothing really has come out of her film playing at. And those were just two of like the known ones she's also been to, like palm springs and like some of these other great regional, local film festivals that are also like worthy of getting into. She just got into holly schwartz and nothing has come out of it and it's like, oh so to be horrifying, truly so.
Speaker 1:I mean, I guess that's part of our conversation, right? Is like the question you asked of like is it? Do you think it's worth it? It's, it's the luck of the draw where it's like some people, I have a buddy, another buddy who, who went to austin film festival, which is a festival that I I got to play at, and she found representation after it and now she's directing, you know, projects over overseas somewhere, but like she found that at austin film festival, which is a local regional film festival, and then my buddy went to south by try or uh. Sundance didn't.
Speaker 2:So it's like you know you're just kind of like, well like, so it kind of is uh is there anything in there like um, the one that did get representation um was their name in her film.
Speaker 1:No, no no, wow it was. It was just a really granted, it was like a really fascinating concept and like it was like a really kind of satirical dark comedy and so it just happened to be the right person right time. So, like even the same thing with um. I hope he's okay with me telling this story, uh, because it is fascinating. I'll keep his name out of it, but it's a story that I was told about.
Speaker 1:What happened to him for this indie feature film that had some semi big names like, but like big names as far as like film people know for like a general audience, it's gonna be like I think I recognize that guy um super indie film, I think, like you know, maybe like right teetering at uh, at least over half a million, but like not too much money, kind of a tarantino-esque movie of just like like almost like a reservoir dogs but with like a kind of sprawling cast. Um, and it played at some some of the big festivals and but the one that it went to was kind of like a regional festival, but but in a different country. I think it was in Spain I want to say it was Sitges or Sitges, but I might be incorrect in saying that, but something of that caliber, right when it's, like it's big, but, like you know, like there's other bigger ones that everyone knows about, like Cannes, of course, or Sundance or whatever, and there just happened to be a producer watching that movie at that time in that audience and he loved the movie and came up to him afterwards he's like an old school producer type and said, like you're gonna be a star kid, like I, I see the big things. And this director friend was like like shut up dude, like no way. Like like like what are you talking to me about? Like this random guy comes up to you, starts telling you about big dreams and big stuff and um, didn't believe it. And then he checked his email the next morning and it's all these offers and all these people in his and you know hollywood a-list directors hitting him up saying, hey, can you pitch on this franchise? Hey, can you do this thing? And now that's quite literally his next job is he's pitching on a, he's directing a franchise horror film that's coming out in the next couple years or whatever it is.
Speaker 1:But like that was at a random film festival, not one of the big ones, not one of the known ones, and a random guy just happened to be in that theater watching it. So all this sprawling talk of me yapping about this, to say that like that that is always part of the chance right Of when you submit to places is like one of those situations quite literally could happen. But at the end of the day, getting into some good festivals also is good for just like like promotional press stuff. So so again, to go back to to to transition that into the we funder and fundraising, that was one of the big problems that I had as compared to like someone like thomas percy kim, who's, uh, you know, uh, a truly a brilliant filmmaker. But thomas has had, like you know, he was a sundance fellow and he's played it. His short film got bought by like hbo, so it's like like great accolades already. So when, of course, when he's saying, like this career that I've had is a major, major success, winning all these awards, I now want to make a feature film, investors are more likely looking at that and going, yeah, like it's about time. It's about time like you're, you're unbelievable, and so they're.
Speaker 1:I'm not saying it was easy for him to raise money, but like there is a leg up right because he has had so much success as a filmmaker.
Speaker 1:And then when I'm trying to raise money, I don't have any of those things I have, you know, middling festival stuff of like smaller places and like stuff that I'm still very, very proud of.
Speaker 1:But it's not like people are going to scroll down my about section and be like oh, like, can I trust this filmmaker? And then there's a sundance laurel and it's like yes, you can. So even, for example, for my friend who didn't get representation and didn't get management out of sundance and south by and things like that, it's not all for nothing, because now, anytime she's pitching that next project and she does like a pitch deck and a bio and an about me section and wants to build credibility to her investors, it's the build. It's there because like, yeah, you have some of the biggest places on your list. So of course I'm more willing to trust you with money and budget and concept because, like, you've proved that you're good or good enough to get into these kind of places. So all that kind of convoluted to speak to practically sadly end up on this, this saying of like sometimes yes, sometimes no, but I do think it goes back to just knowing your film and what is the actual like likelihood?
Speaker 2:uh, and using your connections, so yeah, and I, you know, I think there is value again, like what you were saying, with the, the smaller regional festivals, like sunday um, the thing that made me so happy to see was that people were, you know, like the filmmakers that were invited up and people were exchanging phone numbers. They were like hey, man, when you get back down south we'll get coffee.
Speaker 2:You know, we got work to do and I'm like oh my God Like all these people are here in Reading and they are, you know, already collaborating to work together and it's beautiful, that's so cool and it just expands your web of connections. And you never know, nothing happens on accident and you just never know how those meetings, or the people that you'll meet at these smaller festivals, will come into play into your future.
Speaker 2:And it can be on anything, but you know, uh, it's uh, yeah, pretty, pretty cool, but I'm really happy that, uh, they enjoyed the sundial film festival oh my gosh, I, I still had a blast putting it on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I, I truly have been talking to a lot of people about it and I kind of said the same thing to the people at Filmfort, which is why I try to connect you guys, because it was like it.
Speaker 1:I just saw the thing that is lacking so much from a lot of these kind of festivals, which is just like genuine human connection. I think we live in an era where we're so disconnected and sometimes film can be kind of dog eat dogat-dog, weirdly competitive and just kind of like unsupported. Because you're competing for the like at South Bytes. You're kind of there to just like really bask in the glory of each other and each other's successes for being there, and everyone's so supportive and, literally to the point of what you just said, everyone's hitting each other up, saying like let's get coffee, let's hang out, and then even just following each other on social media or whatever it is. So it's like watching what each other are doing from then on and being like oh my gosh, I just saw your new short or I just saw your new commercial or whatever the thing is you're working on yeah, and that here's an editor.
Speaker 2:You asked if anyone knew about an editor.
Speaker 1:It's like surely no it's like, and I met this guy at a random film festival. Now they hit me up to connect me to this person you know and yeah, wonderful, and I'm, I'm, I'm really excited about the future of Sundial.
Speaker 2:And for the listeners out there that don't know, me and two other dudes, another guy named Tyler and then another gentleman named Tom we took over the film festival that's been in Reading for the last 17 years and we hosted our first version of our idea of it this year in March and we're going to be doing our second year in March of next year, 26. Can't believe 26, but yeah, so really fantastic, and we're having a lot of fun and it is a lot of work. But I think, to answer my own question, I think there is value, like what you said too. It's like it can and it might not, you know. It's like it could be valuable. It might just be a waste of time for you, you know, because you get lost in the mix, and then you know, on those bigger ones, that can be a little bit of an issue yeah, um I, I wanted to, uh.
Speaker 2:I so a while ago, a few years ago this is when I was still living in la I had an idea for a short or a documentary short story series, uh, called feeding the beast, and what it was was going to be interviewing artists and creatives and figuring out what do you do to be able to pay your bills and still afford time to be able to feed the beast. You're chasing a dream. You're obsessed with whatever it is writing, painting, music. For you it's film. What do you do during the day?
Speaker 1:Tyler, this is a great question because I genuinely I talk about this all the time and it feels like there's such a this is I don't want to tangent, because I do want to answer your question right away but I do feel like there's always filmmakers who, like don't really talk about what they were doing during the time of that they were doing stuff like recently jim jarmusch came out and said like, oh yeah, in the 80s I was working at a part-time coffee shop, um to in, like in my free time I would make films. And I was like well, that can't happen in new york anymore. You can't just work a part-time job and go make films. Um, so for me, the two, the two things I say, at least in in proximity to Ratlinbog is I worked, um, I was a COVID officer for a long time and that afforded me a bunch of TV shows and a bunch of features where I was making decent money and just started like really building my savings.
Speaker 1:And the last job that I got, before I really jumped into the feature full time, was I worked on a TV show called Skeleton Crew as a COVID scheduler and that was eight months, and that was just eight straight months of work for Disney, essentially jumped in and I built kind of my little nest egg and then I've been working on and off for this company called shot deck which, uh, anyone, any film fan or anyone who knows is essentially just like film archival database, where if you want to build a pitch deck and it's like I'm working on this, like I want to shoot in a church, uh, I wonder if on shot deck I type in church and then anything that has been tagged with church will pop up, um, whether it's a movie, tv show and you want to be able to have the same color temperatures, like denis, villeneuve, yes dune, or whatever you know it's like yeah exactly.
Speaker 2:You can get specific looks and and uh wow, that's pretty cool. So you watch a lot of film I watch.
Speaker 1:Sadly, I watch so many movies. I think I cracked last year over. I definitely watched over 300 last year, which is ridiculous, because it's what I do every day. Is I just watch movies and tag them, like? Right now I'm working on Bullworth, which was the 1998 film.
Speaker 2:Worm Lady.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm. A Sean astin cameo surprised me. I was like sean astin didn't know he's in this. Um, yeah, tag him, sean astin. Um, and then so that's, that's the main thing. And then it's a lot of just like gig work where it's like you know, I'm doing like an editing job for, uh, this company over in france now, and then sometimes it's like random onset stuff.
Speaker 1:But the main, the main thing that I always tell people is, um, shot deck. That's like the main cause. What's great is it's it's based on how I work. So if I, if I need to work more in a month or in a week or whatever it is, I can put in that time. But if not, and it's work from home, so what's the I again, if I was, I'm glad I'm saying it here, but if I was to say to students or whatever it is, the beauty of this job is that it has afforded me the time to like, take meetings such as this one, right, where it's like oh, like, I'm like literally as soon as we hang up, I will, I will be back to working on shot deck, but it's the fact that I can just pause, work like that to like and then go.
Speaker 1:Do you know, as I mentioned, we're in sound and music post for the film. So it's the fact that I can like do all these things, take calls and then do, and I'm not answering to like a boss, like the only thing I'm answering to is specific deadlines for the specific movies, uh, that they're due by um, but that's it. So I mean, yeah, yeah, it's a lot of gig work. I'd love to. Honestly, I'm looking into a little bit more, either part time or full time work.
Speaker 1:But again, the scary thing I've gone back and forth on about some of the part time work that I've been applying for is I hope this just doesn't take away my ability and flexibility to continue working on this movie, which has been a very, very scary thing. So anyone out there who's like doing something, to that extent I feel for you because, like you got to make money but at the same time, like you can't abandon ship, like I can't just like abandon the film where it is, you know, um. So thankfully, shot deck has been like that perfect um middle ground to kind of keep me afloat while I get to continue working on stuff and it's also inspirational right when it's. Like you know, I'm watching movies as I'm making a movie, so like I'm watching movies and like a random, like, for example, a random movie that I I had to tag for ShotDeck that came up like a little bit before we started filming, was this old film from the 70s called um, uh, let's scare jessica to death. Oh, I just saw that on.
Speaker 2:Uh, it was like something like that. Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 1:I think they.
Speaker 1:I think they remastered it or something they did like a restoration of it yeah and it is so good and it is so awesome and it it shot so interestingly and I literally sent it to my DP and I was like this is what I'm talking about as far as cause. It does a lot of zooms and it does a lot of specific camera movements. And I was like, and I'm literally tagging the movie and then getting those tags that I'm literally doing myself and putting them into the shared folder that I have with my DP. So like, literally, as I'm working and getting paid to work, I'm also helping the feature out in some way.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, that's, I think that's fantastic and I mean, yeah, what a fantastic job to be able to have as a filmmaker, especially as a director, being able to learn on the go and get paid for it. And you know, it's like it. It was always in the back of my head because I thought about this idea for feed the beast, because I was working, uh, at a couple restaurants. I was doing delivery at swingers in santa monica, yeah, yeah, and then I was working the door and I was busing at uh father's office uh, it's on montana, it's a little gastropub, uh beer and fantastic hamburger, very, very, very expensive now, but, um, yeah, and at the time I was just like god, like this is hard, you know, and then trying to go from, uh, santa monica into la for an audition and it takes two and a half hours and I'm just like stuck in traffic wild
Speaker 2:like is it supposed to be this hard? Like what, what was you know uh spielberg doing? You know, it's like what was uh tarantino doing? You know, like, how did they afford the ability to uh pursue their dream and and and stick with it? Because I've, even to this day, you know, I still have moments and thoughts where I'm just like, you know, I don't know if I can, if I can do this much longer, like I think I might need that nine to five. But then I think about it. I'm just like there's no way. I would rather take weird editing jobs. I'd rather go shoot weddings. I'd rather, you know, yeah, do whatever it is, um, in order to to free myself up, to be able to pursue this dream and uh. So, yeah, kudos to you. That's. It's a pretty cool situation there.
Speaker 1:Thank you, but I mean it to your point. It's so difficult, right, like I think now more than ever is like the difficulties on the filmmaker to like find the free time to like make the stuff that they want to make, and things are just so expensive now and you have to be doing like two or three odd jobs if you want to continue pursuing this thing. Or some people have, like you know, the strokes of luck where you know have a full-time job that does afford them groceries and rent and a life and potentially even a family and the free time and the flexibility to go pursue creative personal projects. But that's just so rare. Like raising a family right now, at least on my end of like doing this feature, and you know, having all these odd jobs, it's like no, like I would actually have to like go pursue a full time thing and then therefore, filmmaking falls down a little bit, you know, and it's like, oh, you really are kind of sacrificing all these things for it. Yeah, it's difficult, I think.
Speaker 1:I think that's a great question and I'm definitely I love hearing that that's a question that you because I, I, I, like you, I'm also so curious, like I have so many friends, uh, down here are doing great stuff, and I'm just like what do you? How are you surviving? Yeah, like you're always doing these things and you're always like making, like, are you like working, are you? And, funny enough, I actually was talking to um, uh, he's brilliant photographer, um, and I was asking him. I was like, oh, like how are you kind of? And he's like oh, I have like a secret like marketing office job, like that I do part-time, that like affords, like you know, when I'm not getting booked for photography work, like I'm like you know, when I'm not getting booked for photography work, like I'm doing like media marketing for this, this kind of company over here, and I think they're the people who kind of make sure that I stay afloat while I'm continuing to do photography.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I was like oh, so we're all kind of doing things like that. You know, there's anything you see on Instagram comes at the cost of like, oh, they're doing, they're like they're just filming and it's like they might not be actually they might be doing random, odd things on the side to just like stay up, especially in la.
Speaker 2:You know, oh yeah, and I imagine you know there's a lot of youtubers that you know they do youtube in their free time, you know, and that's the sacrifice there is that you know, uh, it takes up a lot of time, but they have their day job that they pay their bills with, and then in the evenings, weekends, they work on YouTube.
Speaker 2:try to build that up, you know, until they can become more, you know, self sufficient from YouTube you know, truly, I think that's a universal thing, and and and, granted, I was young when I was thinking about that, you know, because, um, it was just like is it really this hard to be in la on my own, you know, as a 22 year old, or whatever? And, uh, yeah, so I'll, I'm gonna be really interested to see how people uh, future guests, you know answer those questions yeah, I'm excited.
Speaker 2:I think it's important for people to to understand the reality of it. Absolutely. It's like, yeah, we all live in this world. Well, I feel like in, especially in entertainment. I think there's a lot of people that just don't understand how much work goes into pursuing something like this, because it's never been more difficult, maybe, uh, but it's it's. You know there's, you know filmmakers a dime, a dozen. You have to figure out you know what sets you apart. You have to dedicate a lot of time to it and you're going to be making those sacrifices. Like you said, like having a family, all that stuff kind of gets pushed to the wayside for a purpose and you better make sure that purpose, you know that you're on board, yeah um or else you're going to look back and feel pretty terrible that you didn't try harder.
Speaker 2:You know, and yeah, you know, but uh, it's pretty cool, ma'am. Um, I have one last question, and you know it doesn't have to be a crazy answer yeah but is hollywood dead?
Speaker 1:dude, I. It's so funny the nuance of this because there is so much to it. But I think, to give you just like a straight up thing, I think, yes, I think Hollywood is dead. I think we're seeing that in the rise of like, for example, like independent television, where people are, you know, spending their own funds and making their own miniseries, then sending it to netflix to buy out, and the amount of downsizing that so many companies have just done recently, like parent and all the things happening paramount and streaming and I and you're seeing the rise of like youtube and patreon and kind of uh, creator economies and the fact that there's like this young boot camp, apparently called like the camp, that these like young filmmakers are starting to like start their own studio system and and tick tock and that's where the eyeballs are going. And the fact that films don't get funded unless you have an a-list star and there's no more mid-budget million dollar film. So there's so much.
Speaker 1:There's so much to be said about that, but I think ultimately, yes. But I think to follow that up with a simple answer and I think it's a good thing that it is, I think that there is at least it needs to die and I think that it has the ability to be resurrected and I think that it is on us to resurrect it in a way that actually is kept up with modern times and also not, as I don't know, icky and secluded and gatekeepy, and you know all this. You know I think it's due for a little resuscitation, but I do think that for that to happen, it does need to die first, and I think if it's not dead yet it is on the IC, it is is you can hear the death rattle. Yeah, I think I think you're. Yeah, you're hearing that death rattle and you're hearing that thing, and I think there's a lot of flailing to keep it alive and I think there's a part of me that's like I think we should let it die, as long as there's people who, I think, are adamant about making sure that it is resuscitated, but in a way that actually helps it flourish, because right now it can't flourish in these conditions and I don't know. So, yeah, I think that I'm such a I'm such a yapper and I can't keep an answer simple, but I know truly.
Speaker 1:But yeah, I think, I think, I think the easiest way to answer that, I think, is just like yeah, if not now then on the way out, kind of the the ugly stepchild, that kind of get kicked out of hollywood's door for a little bit and it's like, okay, well, you know, I think there's such a resurgence of people wanting independent stories and original stories from original filmmakers and original actors. I think people are very tired of seeing the same people, same five actors and the same five things over and over and over again, like all the superhero stuff, I think. I mean you go on any comment section of a tiktok and people go remember when actors used to have like normal looking faces and look like real people and remember when movies were like original and not an eighth rendition of something you know.
Speaker 2:Remember when uh uh studios used to take chances on a filmmaker you know, it's like you know, uh, what's the director? Uh, bogdanovich, he's a writer, peter bogdanovich. Yeah, yeah, it's like you know, here's nine hundred thousand dollars and go make this film like it's.
Speaker 2:You have a really good script you know, yeah, and it's like, and it's a story that hasn't been seen yet and and it's like you know, and then it hits. You know, uh, studios used to take chances and it used to be the lifeblood and it's like, you know, the people that are probably the closest to that, uh, of the old guard they're still older and they're on their way out. It's like tarantino, you know like, he's not gonna direct anymore after his next film, and so there's, you know, I think there's this huge gap where people can fill in. You know like, uh, you mentioned, uh, jim cummings a little earlier and it's like there's a a gap that he's filling, which is taking chances on wild stories, figuring out how to get it done and doing it really well, and he's kind of, you know like, in that transitional period where you don't know if he's going to go huge or stay where he's at, really, and just stay in these tight you know stories.
Speaker 1:Kind of Mark Duplass as well, too, like yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah and I think it's so important for you know filmmakers to understand.
Speaker 2:Again I'm saying this is the perspective of more of a producer, but I can tell like if you know how to produce, you know how to direct and write and edit, you know your own stuff which, think about it. Youtubers do it every single day. Some of them do it every single day. They put out new videos and it's like if you know how to do that, your chances of success in this new kind of uh film world, um, and having the ability to build an audience like you, are so far ahead of anybody else you know because I think gone are the days where studios, you know, except for the very, very, very, very rare, you know opportunity where they see a short film, where they read your, your spec, one, one sheet, and they're like let's make it.
Speaker 1:You know, it's like that doesn't happen anymore, you know yeah, I would and I would definitely say specifically from like a narrative feature film, like perspective too, because I think some of the most exciting filmmakers that I've seen in recent years are coming out of like fashion or editorial or commercial or music video, because that's kind of where the money is in some, in some, some cases. Um, like philip humans is this young guy who's made his first feature film like out of high school and now he's only done like music videos and commercials and like fashion stuff and his stuff's unbelievable. Like he's a brilliant filmmaker and he's getting to do really interesting things, but within the world of like brands and commercials and stuff like that. But his, his projects that he's making are incredibly cinematic. Um, and gabriel moses, who just did the uh the clips. He just did a the chains and whips video for um clips, which is push tea and malice. Um, he does like a lot of art shows and he did this. Um, he did the four by four travis scott video and it is one of my favorite. It literally looks like an a24 film. It's so well made, it's so well shot, to the point where travis scott literally tweeted yeah, like he literally said, like I'm willing to put down I think he just said three or five million dollars so that gabriel moses can do whatever movie he wants, wow. And it's like, yeah, but this guy's I mean, he's a music video guy but like you watch his stuff and it's like, oh, this is so cinematic.
Speaker 1:And then even someone like charlie deplacido who does like all the Jungle videos Jungle is that band and they were they kind of popped up on social media but they did all these kind of like one take elaborate dance choreography, music videos that are very much in the world of like Bob Fosse or Fred Astaire or Ginger Rogers or you know know this kind of like old school Hollywood musical dance numbers. But and so everyone's like, well, la La Land was the last great one, why don't we get any more of that? And it's like, yeah, because those those things back in the day, film and movies, were the only place to put those things. And now we have youtube, now we have tiktok, and so those so fred astaire and ginger rogers lives on in the form of jungle and their lead choreographer, like will west or something like that they're never going to be, you know, sold out at like these theaters around the country. They're going to just put the whole thing on youtube or as like an nft or whatever like that and have people take it that way, because that's how we found it, me and my, my roommates. We found it on as like an nft and they released the full thing on youtube and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:But like, yeah, they're. They're some of the best well shot, well lit, well choreographed, well costumed and the music's unbelievable dance videos and I just saw singing in the rain at the american cinematech and I was like, well, these are kind of this, these are spawn, like the jungle video is like a spawn of this thing, but it exists somewhere else now and I think that's that's the thing about. Hollywood is dead. Is these things that we love? Everyone's like well, where is it? And I just don't think it exists in the same way as we thought anymore it exists in all these different.
Speaker 1:it exists in music videos and exists in commercials and podcasts and all these different things. Like sarah baba is like she's like this artist, filmmaker, she's doing these crazy like podcast documentary short, like it's like meta meta podcast interview, but it's mixed with costumes and locations and real set pieces and real kind of like narrative fictional moments, but it kind of like blows up the space of like what a podcast can be and it's incredibly cinematic and it feels in very like french new wave and how it's like edited and how it's shot and I'm like that's crazy, like that's crazy that that's something that people can do now. So, yeah, I guess all these things to say of giving examples for is I think it's dead and I think it exists in other spaces and I don't know, in my opinion, if I like that or not, because, again, I'm such a film lover and film nerd that I want these things to exist on the big screen. But I think it kind of goes to where's the money going?
Speaker 1:And the brands who are making these things. Their whole goal isn't to go make it in theaters. And there's some who are right, like we just saw Starbucks, and like Louis Vuitton and, like you know, st Laurent start production companies. I can't remember what film St Laurent, I think St Laurent just did. What was the film that everyone? It was the musical Netflix film that Zoe Zaldana won the.
Speaker 2:Oscar for oh my God.
Speaker 1:I can't remember the name of it now. I literally tagged it on Shotgun.
Speaker 1:Isn't it Amelia, amelia, amelia Perez, amelia Perez, that's what it is. I'm pretty sure St Laurent produced that and they're like a fashion company and so it's, I think. But they also have like some of the most unbelievable videos on YouTube that I've ever seen from really brilliant filmmakers. So it's interesting, it's really interesting to see where the talent of filmmakers are coming from, and not all of them are falling into the traditional narrative filmmaking space. Some of the best filmmakers I think we have today exist in other spaces. You know, like a modern day spike jones might not be a feature filmmaker. A modern day spike jones might literally live on youtube, patreon tiktok and be one of the greatest filmmakers you've ever seen, but like maybe no one really knows who he or she is because, like they just don't exist in the same sphere of, like traditional theatrical exhibition anymore.
Speaker 2:It's like the, uh, the ghosts of uh hollywood past. You know, it's like no truly exists, but in a liminal space. Yeah, so, and I think maybe.
Speaker 1:Maybe that helps answer. The hollywood's dead thing is maybe that's part of it too where it's like yeah, like the, the ghost, yeah, that's a great, that's a great uh way to to describe it. I think so. I completely agree with you that's so interesting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, dude, this has been fantastic. Um we got to talk about some really cool stuff. I'm really happy, uh, for you, um I'm stoked that you're repping norcal uh, true north, uh, yeah, yeah absolutely. You know you're, you're, you're kicking ass, uh, working hard um. Can you tell people where they can find you?
Speaker 1:uh, whether it's youtube or instagram or yeah, I think the best thing people would find me at is probably my instagram, which is like at maxwell, underscore hughes, underscore cliber, which is, I think, if they can see the name below, if not, it's kale ai ber um. That's probably where I'm most active. I'm not I'm not really a Twitter guy anymore. Facebook is purely to keep in touch with the folks.
Speaker 2:Yeah, as old people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I, yeah, but yeah, that's that's probably where I'm most active. But no, Tyler, I mean I'm really I'm really appreciative and I'm most active. But no, tyler, I mean I'm really appreciative and I'm always glad to rep Northern California. That's something that's on my heart, has always been. I love my hometown and the people there. I still keep in touch with yourself.
Speaker 1:Other Tyler, kevin again, who was our cam op, my parents who still live up there, all my childhood friends I went to school with, like you know, whenever I can I see them and stuff. So, there, all my childhood friends I went to school with, like you know, whenever I can, I see them and stuff. So, yeah, I really uh, and also people who are listening, who are filmmakers, whether they're from my neck of the woods or up north. If you got a film submitted to sundial, I had such a blast.
Speaker 1:I felt very taken care of, great before and after, parties of just like people hanging out, eating good food, and it truly that that march of those three major film festivals, like the fact that it was sundial's like first real year, especially under the three of you guys, um, and it held its own amongst south by and film for and I was, I didn't leave sundial going like, oh well, like you, another hometown festival, it's like. No, like you guys really kind of went above and beyond and I do believe there's going to be great, great success in the next couple of years for you guys. I really do think, because I stay in touch with some of the filmmakers who were there, because some of them are LA people, right, yeah, and they're like well, I'm going to submit next time. I have something.
Speaker 2:I want to go back, you know, uh, and march is also a really beautiful uh time of the year. It was a great time of year. It was really great weather, oh my god, it was great, it was unbelievable. So, yeah, and, and you know, of course, uh, you know you, and I have to say you were not selected just because you were from here. You, yeah, thank you. It was a pretty incredible short film. How long was it?
Speaker 2:11 minutes 11 minutes, yeah, or 11 and a half, 11 and some change 11 and some change one-er with a wild Zoom, you know, like the longest walk in Zoom.
Speaker 1:So, no, it was really cool and I was so proud, uh, to be able to have you up here and, um, I'm looking forward to the future, you know, yeah absolutely I'm excited to be back in some in some capacity, whether it's with a film myself or to support in any capacity because, yeah, you guys, you guys did it right. For a first year it was kind of unbelievable because you've been a part of some. You know there's some festivals that just don't, yeah, just not, and I don't want to name names, but like there's some that I've been to recently that I'm like oh gosh, oh golly. You know there's these things are just not, and so the fact that you guys like really went above and beyond and and again, this is kind of the to your same point. I don't say that as, like you know, because you guys are the hometown and you guys are friends, truly like, in all seriousness.
Speaker 1:It was like no, you guys actually did the darn thing so, yeah, it is.
Speaker 2:It is filmmaker centric. Yeah, and you feel it. You really do feel it. We, we want, you know, we're filmmakers. It's like how would we like to be treated? The golden rule.
Speaker 1:But it's also about oh, who would have thought, you know?
Speaker 2:right. Yeah, it's also about building our community's trust. You know that that we have, uh, everyone's interest in mind, and number one we want people to be entertained you know, and we want, potentially, them to be able to walk out learning something, uh, or you know, uh, being upset about something or turned on about something you know, we just want people to to be able to have a reaction to what they're watching. But you know, I'm really excited about the future of it and um, we'll see, we will see, yeah because we'll be back in march.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I think, um the uh uh submissions are opening in august, I believe okay so um we'll be pushing that a lot, but uh, yeah I'll repost, I'll reach out and get some friends out there, sweet man, thank you and again, thank you so much for jumping on here it's been a blast we'll be in touch we'll be in touch, thank you. Thank you so much for having me on. It's been a blast chatting you.
