Hollywood is Dead
Hollywood is Dead
10 // Dir. Michael Ryan (The Dresden Sun)
In a conversation that's as much about creative resilience as it is about filmmaking, director Michael Ryan takes us deep into the 15-year journey of bringing The Dresden Sun to life. This ambitious cyberpunk thriller wasn't just directed by Ryan – he served as writer, producer, DP, editor, visual effects artist, and post-production supervisor, literally embodying every facet of the creative process.
The Dresden Sun throws viewers into a dystopian future where mercenaries are hired by powerful corporations to conduct espionage against their rivals. When a brilliant mercenary teams up with an insider to steal a mysterious technology called the Sphere, they trigger a chain reaction that pulls together disparate characters from across this fractured society. The film tackles big ideas about consciousness, corporate control, and interdimensional reality while delivering pulse-pounding action and stunning visuals.
What makes this conversation particularly compelling is Ryan's candid discussion of the challenges faced during production. From shooting during COVID with limited resources to personally creating hundreds of visual effects shots, his story reveals the extraordinary dedication required to complete an independent film with studio-level ambitions. "I averaged somewhere between 70 and 100 hours a week for a long time," Ryan shares. "I don't even know what a holiday is."
Perhaps most inspiring is Ryan's philosophy on creative persistence. Despite multiple failed deals and moments of almost pulling the plug, he never gave up on his vision. When asked if Hollywood is dead, Ryan offers a nuanced perspective: "What's dead is the over-reliance on strip mining nostalgia... it's time to take some risks, time to do something new." For anyone who's ever dreamed of making their own film or pursuing a creative vision against all odds, this conversation serves as both blueprint and battle cry.
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Michael Ryan didn't just direct the Dresden Sun Writer, producer, dp editor, post-production supervisor. He wore every hat, survived every storm and came out the other side with the hardest film you've ever seen Today. I get to talk with my business partner, creative partner and, most importantly, my friend. Welcome to the show, michael Wright.
Speaker 2:Hello, greetings, how you doing.
Speaker 1:Thank you for the intro Visual effects too yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, there was also assets and stuff like that too. So I don't know what you would call that. There's like names for every particular aspect, but not that I'm that's why it's all encompassing post-production. Oh yeah, I guess, basically, you know, I'm kind of it was kind of like a um, oh, you know, like you know, when you get like um, like when you go to the store and you get candy and there's like nerds, and then they mix the nerds with like other nerds on one side and now you get four flavors.
Speaker 2:I think they do that now or you get the nerd whips and you get like 10 different flavors on one whip and you can eat it. That's kind of what it's like, yeah it's still a box of nerds it's just a box of nerds with different flavors and different things and they all do different stuff and they all have different like attributes and stuff. So you kind of kind of just get thrown into that.
Speaker 1:I guess yeah.
Speaker 2:It's a terrible analogy, but I'll do it anyway.
Speaker 1:Well, dude, I wanted to, um, we've been wanting to do this podcast, this episode, for a little while and we've been kind of, um, you know, being patient and and waiting for the right time, and I think the right time is today. I appreciate that, hell, yeah. So before we really get into, I would say, the trenches. How would you describe the Dresden Sun in your own words?
Speaker 2:As in what context? That's a very sizable question.
Speaker 1:So like, like like story or like if I was somebody that wanted to potentially watch this film, how would you describe it to me?
Speaker 2:Uh okay, if you were an audience member who wanted to watch this picture. So I would say that it is an amalgam of several genres with big ideas, a lot of characters that I believe are fleshed out, especially considering the time window that it's told in and the type of genre it is. So you're looking at kind of an action, sci-fi genre with a lot of interesting allegorical undertones and interesting ideas that deal with things that people are talking about today, things that have been around for a long time and things that people question. So it's a good ride. I would say it's. I genuinely believe this. I think it's actually very entertaining, even though it has all these interesting ideas, even though it plays with, like interdimensional reality or mercenary work in a cyberpunk corporatocracy kind of world, or different variables and different stories intersecting with each other that are all uniquely interesting. It's on a very significant trajectory, which I think is entertaining and I think it's a good ride. So I'm biased, of course, because I spent a ton of time on it, but at the end of the day I think that's what it is and I mean you kind of have to watch the film and make up your own mind.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of intention in it. It was very pre-visualized, it was very thought out in a lot of intention in it. It was very pre-visualized, it was very thought out in a lot of respect and there's a lot of world building in it because it connects itself to a larger arc overall. That drives the primary narrative where all these different characters are kind of floating in between in this world. And it's an ensemble piece and the cast is fantastic. I love the captain free, every actor that works on this, from on to Mina to Sam, you know, richard Louis, christina everybody everybody who acts, including you know, people like Dell, and I mean it's the guy who played Todd.
Speaker 1:Jansen.
Speaker 2:Christopher Lee, Lee McCloskey I could go through the whole list. I love the cast we had to work with so it really drives the film significantly. So good ride, good trajectory, very big ideas, has very big ideas and has a wonderful cast, wonderful guest and shout out to uh, neely german, our casting, yes, our cast? Yeah, absolutely, she was fantastic she was great, great, absolutely. Somebody gets the job done. Radar, you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:Like she's do you remember, do you, do you remember, um, what like sparked the idea for this film? A lot of things. It's been, it's been, it's been in, in, uh, some form of production for a very long time.
Speaker 2:No, I mean, it's been in that development hell over 15 years. I've done over 50 drafts of it. I've been through multiple attempts to try and get it somewhere. I really started building the world, though, in the 2000s, but I started actually writing the real first draft of this screenplay around 2008, 2009. And I finished it in 2009. And that was really basically the first like that was the first rendition of it. It's different in a lot of respects because of this one. It had a flair that was futuristic, but it wasn't as I didn't embrace the cyberpunk genre nearly as much.
Speaker 1:It was more of an action thriller before.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was an action thriller. Well, it was sci-fi too. It had sci-fi. Oh, yes, I'm sorry. Yeah, it still had the monocle in. It had all that stuff in it. It just was.
Speaker 2:I think it was a little bit more closer and contemporary perspective of the production design. So the production design in this one which was great because you can go off into so many different directions to try and really tell the subjective nature of what the story is through the production design which is the reason why it's so colorful, and the previous one really didn't have that baked into it it really did deal with a lot of finance. It really got into the financial model and was really introspective on it how markets can actually be rigged. That kind of stuff was very influenced, especially by the 2008 crash. But there was other things that had a huge influence on it um, consciousness, you know, those have been beaming around forever.
Speaker 2:Uh, philosophy um, you know, we're in our interdimensional reality, string theory. Um, non-locality you know. Dimensional reality, string theory, nonlocality, you know. You know things like Schroeder's cat All those things are just interesting ideas that kind of found their way into that and they were already built on that.
Speaker 2:And also the idea of control, corporate control or what I would like to call corporatocracy. So those themes have been explored since and it's not very difficult when it comes to those kinds of if you want to call them sociopolitical. I consider them just sociological, honestly. It's political because it deals with power, but it's still sociological because a thousand years from now, nobody will know what any of this shit is, if it's ever recorded or if we survive as a species, because empires come and go and corporations come and go and they're as fleeting as grains of sand on a beach. They really are. That's the reality of life in respect to our history. We have to deal with it in a present moment which can be, um, both invigorating and painful, so maybe a lot of suffering involved so a lot of that stuff has to do with control or the illusion of it and uh.
Speaker 2:So those things kind of found their way into this ensemble piece. Originally that revolved a little differently around some of the other characters, and then some of the characters' names changed, but overall I remember when we were doing it and we did the promo.
Speaker 2:And the promo was really just for the concept. It was really like okay, we did the heist and the heist is different in this picture, but it's still basically the same thing. You got a MacGuffin and they're going after this particular MacGuffin and it means something and there's a reason why this MacGuffin is so important and that is your usual trope that can trigger a classic narrative with a thriller aspect to it, or at least it's something everybody wants, which has been done.
Speaker 1:I think it would be a good idea for me to read the storyline for the listeners so that they can follow along a little bit.
Speaker 2:So it goes.
Speaker 1:A heist goes south when a brilliant, principled mercenary with a traumatic history works with an insider to steal a valued commodity from Peridot Corporation called Sphere. The sea and earth corporation, vying for global dominance, seeks to find a solution to an otherworldly technology for a scientist's project. Seeks to find a solution to an otherworldly technology for a scientist's project. A financial analyst who despises his job at the powerful investment firm Mutual One is caught in the middle between deadly corporate rivals, financial fraud and technological espionage, forcing him to run from the most psychopathic military contractor in the world.
Speaker 2:So it's pretty compelling, if you ask me the storyline yeah, I mean, and honestly, you can just cherry pick anything you want out of society and what's happened in the last 25 years that can easily, yeah, take your pick. I mean, I could go into references and analogies that uh I mean you know?
Speaker 2:collective human behavior, and collective, you know, um know, creations or machinations that exist in what people do to push certain types of industry, I mean the military contractor. Come on, let's say this is basically a mercenary corporation and doesn't been around for decades. Matter of fact I would say they've been around a lot longer than that. I'd say they've been around. I'd say that kind of idea and that kind of that kind of core has been around for thousands of years. But, point being, I'm serious, you know, going probably way back before the common era.
Speaker 2:So, long story short, all those things kind of like found their way into this particular story and they all represent that aspect. And, yes, complicated, but I mean I could really get into what's the sphere? The sphere, basically, I did an entire report on it and based it on other things that exist loosely, on current ideas that are also found in quantum mechanics and physics, also found in other avenues of speculation, and a lot of it is speculative fiction and some of it's symbolic, because there's a lot, excuse me, you know, there's an esoteric side of this movie as well. So it's symbolic, there's a lot of symbolism in it. So basically, all that stuff is kind of the narrative may again because it's an ensemble and I don't want to give away. I apologize for being relatively vague. Yeah, the narrative may again because it's an ensemble and I don't want to give away.
Speaker 1:I've apologized of him being relatively vague yeah, the film is not out yet, so it's not out yet and I don't really spoil it navigate around some of that, but yeah, I'm actually no offense, I'm just trying to keep.
Speaker 2:I'd rather you guys, I'd rather somebody just walk in, you know, to a fucking movie, just go.
Speaker 1:I didn't know what I was expecting.
Speaker 2:It's great. I mean, that's the coolest thing in the world not having a preconceived or preloaded perception that is influenced by, whether it's the social dynamics of the world you're constantly barraged by, or your friends. You find out your own opinion and that's the, that's the most incredible way of watching film. That's when you can really tell um use, reviews, anything like that. It becomes you and yourself, and that's always a fun experience. I try not to give you too much, but I'll give you a few things. I mean, it's relatively simple. You've got mercenaries that are hired by corporations to do basically espionage and corporate espionage, and a lot of them to stay in competition with each other, because it's a differential advantage they steal from each other, which has been done for quite a while. I mean, in our world it's almost daily practice probably. But at the end of the day, this is a more extreme version of it because it exists on a parallel world really, and it's a little bit of the future and technology has come a little bit further in form that is more beneficial towards that structure, and I mean that, like this world isn't remotely close to what I would call. Wow, what a beautiful world. It's utopian. We've taken our technology and benefited mankind. It is not that at all. It is a free for all and there is nothing but people competing for differential advantage and they will use any means necessary within a very specific legal framework, so nobody gets busted. And so of course, these mercenaries are called to, you know, through a fixer which is also found as an idea. That's in various stories, but long story. They basically have an intermediary who hooks them up with a job and they do this gig and they get paid. And you have these two interesting characters. One is a basically I don't want to give it away too much, but refuses to kill people for a particular reason, and they do this gig with an insider. And they do this gig with an insider, and the insider is a guy who works for a very big r&d division that primarily handles clandestine technology, stuff that is need to know, highly classified and only on the books, in the shadows. And so one big corporation that is in rival with a multiple corporations wants that tech because they have something that they invested in, which is dr cordless and her invention, that this piece of technology will complete to make sure her invention works properly. But they don't have this technology. They need to fucking steal it, and so they hire through a very vast underbelly to make sure that nobody can trace it to them, you know, through an intermediary to find them, the employees they need to pull off the gig. It's as simple as that. And of course, that sends off this huge trajectory of different consequences and variables that come into play based on various people who are involved.
Speaker 2:Now, again, it's an ensemble piece, so you have three intersecting, primary intersecting storylines, but they all coalesce and go into one, which is cool. I think that was a big part of this. Yeah, I, I think it's cool to do something, you know, simplified, where it's really focused around, like a primary antagonist and the protagonist. But this, I think the gray area of reality, can be more interesting when you're bringing an ensemble and you show the different shades of humanity. Now we have we have obviously very colorful antagonists, and I call them antagonists because I don't consider them villains. I consider them almost like in science. You have a positive, negative, so it's the primary trigger that creates significant conflict. But that's not the only antagonist in the story, like Malik, who runs this massive, well, this mercenary corporation that does you know he makes money off of this.
Speaker 2:You know that's how he gets, that's how he gets his wealth. But he's only one aspect of it and his involvement is based on contracts. So there's a gray area there. And then there's the Sea and Earth Corporation. They're an antagonist, but there's also a gray area there. And then there's the Sea and Earth Corporation. They're an antagonist, but there's also a gray area there, because Thresden, even though Thresden is invested and works with them, doesn't necessarily agree with them.
Speaker 2:Thresden has their own, you know, she has her own objective of what she wants. So everybody's got their own things and they're all kind of caught in between this crazy structure that precipitates the narrative in this environment, this world that is kind of like the overlord of all the corporations, which is really like the weather and the color. All those things kind of represent the world and then all these players in it, and then it has relatively philosophical and cathartic perspectives in it, based on the characters' experiences and the ideas that are inherent with what the sphere means and what Dresden Corliss' invention is, why she would do this, why this person's there, and so on and so forth I think are reflective of especially today's zeitgeist with technology, consciousness, uh, societal structure, economics, everything, all that stuff kind of finds its way into this in a particular narrative, and since it's a lot of big ideas, I don't think it could be done specifically with just one story in one film. I think it was more. It just made more sense to go in a, um, an ensemble which is more to me, is challenging. It's very, I think it's fun, but it's also challenging. It's.
Speaker 2:I genuinely think it, even though I don't want to use the word easy, because there isn't anything. I don't really believe in it. I don't really think there's anything fucking easy about writing a screenplay or putting a story out there. Really, um, especially if you're really trying to do something that's, you know, compelling and well thought out and has a very good, um, you know, hook to it and really good character development, you have to spend some time on that. So, even if something has a relatively simple, you know, protagonist, antagonist, kind of hero, journey or a variation of that or an arrested development version of that, it's, you know, you got one character, one story and kind of everything else supports that.
Speaker 2:This is like different and I think, because of the kind of world it is, it opened up that ability to tell not just their story but the world we're in, because they don't. I know we're all influenced by our world, where everything about it has an influence on us. The environment has a massive influence on our psychology, our brain, chemistry, um, who we are, and we have an influence on it as well, and I think that's a big concept that is in this story that deals with that idea, and you can go right to lectures by David Bohm quantum physicist, late quantum, brilliant quantum physicist about that idea and that is saturated as a tool to tell the story. And part of that is the structure of the story. I think it doesn't exclude anything. It's not just a microcosm, it's a microcosm with another microcosm, another microcosm and some big macrocosm, if that makes any sense. Now I'm starting to remember anything.
Speaker 1:So hold a ship there big macro process, if that makes any sense. Now I'm starting to remember anything. Well, there's a lot of shit there. I wanted to ask you um, you know, going back to you know you alluded to the fact that there's nothing that's easy about this entire process, but I do think that that you must have some kind of a northern star that you aim for, because you're you're a writer, filmmaker and accomplished musician. Not very many people know that, but do you have a philosophy about creativity?
Speaker 2:a philosophy of creativity? That's a very interesting question. Philosophy of creativity, like what's your? Like mapped out a what's my northern star.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean how do you push through those, those negative feelings of?
Speaker 2:you just have to. You know this is hard. I don't have a choice. Really, it's commitment. You just have to do it. I just have to. It's got to get done it.
Speaker 2:I don't like to use battle, but there's a truth in that. Um, when you're doing a project like this which was insanity, I'm not kidding. This was extremely difficult because of how much detail that goes into it the thousands of files, the different layers of every particular shot, because there was roughly 1700 shots that were visual effects. And visual effects, folks, is not just and there's no justice in this, but it isn't like not all visual effects are cg. Dg is a robotic model or something or a monster. That's cg because it's using graphical three-dimensional models and animation and things like that. But not all visual effects are that complicated or require that much stuff. Sometimes it's as simple as you know set extensions, which isn't simple really. So you're creating a background, you're doing a plate, you're doing a um, an advertisement on space. Sorry if I'm getting a little segue here, but anyway no, it's fine what I'm getting at is that?
Speaker 2:uh, I didn't have much of a choice. It was a lot of work, and when you're sitting in that kind of zone, you just have to fucking do it. Yeah, it's as simple as that.
Speaker 1:Excuse my language I apologize.
Speaker 2:I don't know if this is rated R or rated G. I'll cut it out if you want Rated R.
Speaker 1:All good.
Speaker 2:What is the rating of this show Is?
Speaker 1:it R or mature, it's whatever so I can use a little don't worry, I'm not going to just sit there and go but I can say fuck you. Okay, cool, I'm just saying it okay, so I covered earlier that you wore a lot of different hats yes so which role writer, director, dp editor, any of the other ones that you've, that you filled in um felt the most natural to you, and well, I mean, you know, it all starts with directing which one was the hardest to step into it all starts with directing anyway.
Speaker 2:Directing is actually like, because you're doing pre-vis, you're telling story, you're crafting it. All that stuff is directing, really, including. I mean, some people aren't, as, um, they don't micromanage the camera like I do, because I'm technical and I do like to have an understanding of my composition, significantly, because I genuinely think that's actually what's in your brain. If you can pull that off, that is the direction that truly is, and then that anything that unfolds from that process, whether it's a natural contribution from somebody else, then that becomes part of that market and then thus your creation is born through that collaboration. And that's it so directing first, because everything is spawned from it.
Speaker 2:I wouldn't just say, hey, I'm gonna do visual effects. That's the thing I don't like doing. Um, you know, let's do that. I hats off to people doing roto, hats off to everyone that worked with me on this project. It was very difficult, um, and they did a really good job. I had a very small handful of people that assisted me with this and, um, you know, and and worked very hard. We all did and, um, I fucking hate doing visual effects. Yeah, I love them, but doing them is a pain in the ass. Yeah, it's tough, it's hard, it's hard. Layers upon layers. Mistakes render issues trying to get it right lighting all kinds of crap. Rota works a pain in the ass. Now, if you're a Roto specialist, no big deal. You're using Silhouette or something else and you know exactly what you're doing.
Speaker 2:But that's kind of a process. When you streamline it into an industrialized kind of system, you have this person for this, this person for this and it kind of gets cranked out and that's a nice. That's a very good way of doing visual effects when you're streamlining it so you can get it efficiently done. But when you're generalist which is technically what I am, a visual affection generalist I do a little bit of everything but I don't do one thing better than the other. So I don't do roto. Great, you know I could do it, but I'm not very good at it. You know I don't do modeling, you know I, you, you bring somebody in to collaborate with to do that. That's their specialty, specialty. I mean, that's someone who does that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:So when you're asking, like all that other stuff, I mean I don't hate visual effects themselves. I just don't like sitting in front of a fucking computer and staring at layers and layers and layers and layers and layers and doing all this shit and seeing it either fail or not work or whatever. That's hard and that's fine. I'll do it, I did, and sometimes it's fun. There's a certain fun to it. When you pull it off, it's nice. When it's done, it's fun. Actually, that's when it's really fun, when it's like done, because you're still not done, you're still going through it, you're still going over the layers over this, you're still revising it, and so on and so forth. So I found that to be the most difficult, because it's so tedious and plus, also managing all the media and then creating assets for it. There's a lot of assets that need to be created for this movie. There were ads which were created live. A lot of them were created actually live and I shot them and directed them together.
Speaker 2:Especially, you were there with one of those shoots yeah, and and for the listeners, you know, in the film we have a lot of, uh, holographic advertisements that play yes of silencia, so yeah, like sleazy, like fucked up, you know kind of broken yeah that, or cyberpunk 2077, or did video game, which is phenomenal, uh, or, um, you know, william gibson, a romancer, johnny mnemonic and total recall, tilky dick, that kind of stuff that insinuates this, just barrage, this intense vomit of marketing on the most primal and freudian levels you can think of, and and that's basically what it is, get this, buy this, but you know, just yeah in your and it's just in your fucking face, which really we're kind of there already.
Speaker 2:It's just a little bit more. What's the word? It's like somebody did the same thing, except they put a nice gloss on it, so it's a little more deep. Oh, that's nice, but you know, I mean, people are, people are, people are. Like you know, they might as just you know, at this point, they might as well just glue their cell phone or their smartphone to their, to their forehead. Yeah, take me to your cup. Take me to your cup, I'm ready.
Speaker 1:I remember when we were going through the rewrites on this thing and you know this film is kind of set, would you say, like 35 years in the future, 40 years in the future.
Speaker 2:We'd say about 30.
Speaker 1:And so we imagine the advertising would be so obscene.
Speaker 2:Totally, and it would be sexualized too. It would be hyper sexualized, again Freudian. It would be Freudian in one respect Sometimes it's actually based off real things. Edward Bernays, public relations guy from the 20s all the way up until the 90s, retired. That was basically the birth of how you can use behavioralism. You know, ideas and emotional and biological stimulation to create impulsivity. That the marketing becomes something that taps into your impulsivity, your more animalistic desires, as opposed to your rational and objective nature, and that is actually a very powerful tool to motivate people. You know, without reason and advertising has been basically at this point, it's almost a science in neuroeconomics. That's actually a real subject where you can pretty much tap right into the noodle. Yeah, get that brain chemistry going.
Speaker 1:I want to get into. Oh no, go ahead. Um, I wanted to get into. You know, part of what what Hollywood is dead is is meant for is to kind of get a peek into the processes and stuff of, you know, filmmakers and hopefully inspire the listeners to, you know, make their own thing, and so I wanted to talk a little bit about you know. I mean we've already established this was a very, very, very difficult film to pull off. You know, we didn't have a lot of money for the type of film that this is. You know, typically this would be a big studio movie and we were able to, I believe you were able to kind of pull off this, this absolutely a studio level film, and so.
Speaker 1:But during that process there was and you and I have talked over the years a lot because this, you know, just like, uh, kind of, um, what would you say? Just commiserating maybe a little bit, but was there a shot like that we actually had to go shoot, not not CG stuff, um, shot like that we actually had to go shoot, not not cg stuff, um, but that we actually had to go shoot? Uh, that was so hard to pull off that you weren't sure that we'd get it? I can think of one, and I knew we would get it, but there was just a lot of roadblocks. Can you think of one? Going back to? I know this is a little while ago now.
Speaker 2:No, I mean, I remember pretty much everything in relatively good detail I'm just trying to think of is there a set that was like terribly difficult? I just think there were circumstantial circumstances that were. You know, like with all movies, they have challenges and there's different types of variables that come into play.
Speaker 1:You, know everybody.
Speaker 2:You got a crew and everybody's doing all these different things and you have different, you have adversity, whether it's COVID or money or a location that falls out. There's all kinds of things that happen in movies. It's just part of it's trial and error, it's Murphy's law. It always has been. That's how movies are. They happen in real time and then they die after they're done shooting, except for the post-production process and the distribution process. So I can't really pinpoint. Really, was there a particular shot to pull off? I think honestly, with every, everyone that was there and everything we did, pretty much the shots that I wanted to get we got. Yeah, I just can't. I think it's. I don't think it's just one particular shot. I would say it's getting a particular look or a particular location or something could have been difficult. So you know I don't know I mean like that's a very good question.
Speaker 2:I'm trying to think here through my head because, honestly, the whole thing was difficult. You know it's hard making a movie. It's really really hard, you know it's really really hard. You know, I mean you can have quote unquote a smooth shoot or a smooth day, and then you can have a rough day. It doesn't matter, because that's what we did. When you're shooting, especially when you have this many visual effects and this much world building and all this stuff, that's only half of it. Then you get into post, you, oh, it's another shooting, it's another version of shooting. So I genuinely just think they're all fucking hard. Yeah, but I don't think it was technically difficult to get. There were a couple of things that were like, okay, that could be hard to do, but what is I mean? I genuinely believe making any project, project problem solving, is your best friend and sometimes you have to problem solve and find a new creative way of doing it and that creative way becomes better than what you pre-visualized.
Speaker 2:And that happened on multiple occasions. Which was really dope, and I love it, was fire, and so, like long story short, all that stuff kind of came into play. So to me, I genuinely think, across the board it's difficult, but I can't really think of a particular shot that was hard. Like, could we technically pull this off? Do we have the time? I mean, that happens every day anyway. Um, I would say, though I think the I think, like the octagon room stuff is was pretty tricky. Oh yeah, that was tricky to do because there's so much going on, because you have blue screen everywhere and you have all this stuff and you have to put it together. That was tricky. Was it hard? Well, sure, you're putting, you're basically multiplying and doing set extensions. It's hard. But was it impossible? No, not at all. I don't think there's anything that was impossible, even when we were doing it.
Speaker 2:I mean, I don't agree with that. I mean there's a limit based on what you can do physically and what's available financially. But you can push these envelopes by coming up with creative solutions or compositional ideas that tell the same story and tell the same thing. And then later, when especially this is the beauty of video effects, not that you know, forgive me for saying the word hate uh, it's me about sitting in front of after effects or nuke or something that I don't really enjoy, but I'll do it anyway. I'm getting segue. Point being is is that that's already difficult and you have that option to post anywhere, but I don't. I also don't believe like, oh well, I don't look at, we'll fix it in post.
Speaker 2:Post is part of the creation, especially in this production. So everything we did had a certain level of difficulty because it was still going to go into post and it was incomplete Really, and that's what we call an incomplete shot was incomplete really and that's what we call an incomplete shot. So I think the ones where there were things like that were difficult technically and hard to deal with sometimes. Yeah, and I don't know what was. What was the shot that you were thinking seriously? What?
Speaker 1:were you thinking, man, um, oh the. The one that I thought was going to be more difficult was the car chase.
Speaker 2:Oh, that was tricky. Yeah, that was tricky.
Speaker 1:As the producer, I'm like oh man, there's not a lot of time. And there was discussion about doing it on green screen, which was absolutely out of the question.
Speaker 2:It would have looked terrible. And so I'm like okay, okay, we have to do it practically so you know you have to come back and I was already looking at options for that and it was. You know, I, yeah, yeah, honestly no, I didn't have any shooting it live was. That was actually, that was a hoot, so all that stuff was the only day I wasn't able to be on set.
Speaker 2:I was like yeah, yeah and getting those plates and stuff like that. There was certain things that we needed to get, but shooting it live is actually a lot easier, and and the irony is is that when we were shooting everything that we shot with the car chase, stuff still had to be composited, everything had to get removed. But shooting it live is honestly a hell of a lot easier than trying to recreate it in a three-dimensional space and do it exactly the way you want it, with the composition that you're looking for, especially to make it organic.
Speaker 1:Think of the physics.
Speaker 2:There's so many things that come into play. I mean, just go watch, just look, there's one shot in bullet that says everything about their car shot. It's only one shot that kind of gives it away of how much is going on. Realistically it's when Steve McQueen puts the car in reverse. He puts the fastback in reverse and you pretty much see the axle and everything almost ready to break because he puts in such fucking power into it and you see it. That's real physics right there. You know. No, we could replicate some level of that. But capturing live to me is. I just prefer this. It just looks dope.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's the same thing with whether it's mad max or fury road or or road warrior or, um, you know, or a ronin, which actually frankenheimer did great car chases. So did uh, billy free kid, they Frankenheimer did great car chases. So did a Billy Friedkin. They all did really great car chases. I love a fucking good car chase. They're bad-ass. If you do it right in the context works. They're great because it's also just the art of the stunts. You're looking at the art of the players, you're looking at the way people drive and there's a huge expression in that and huge expression in that and when you're watching it live, it's just a very different experience. It's very visceral. Yeah, cars live, it's just rad you know, if you're, if you like cars.
Speaker 2:So you know, that to me was, honestly, once I knew we were going to pick a lot of that stuff up. Live was the easier part. Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I'm not kidding that knowing that we were to do it would have been more. It would have been a nightmare if that other, if it had to be completely, and it would have been astronomically expensive. Um, I think we saved tens of thousands of dollars at least doing, you know, really combining it with live elements, and it was unbelievably. And it still didn't. It still didn't look very good. It would have looked, it would have looked fake.
Speaker 2:Honestly, unless you're doing and even then it's still difficult because I can tell most of the time, unless it's a really high level, you know we are, I don't know, or some big studio out there that know we are ilm, or some big studio out there that's really got that down. Yeah, it's. It is difficult to do it unless you've got those kinds of resources to combine, and we still combine, you know, visual effects elements regardless. There were tons of them and um, it just came out right. It's a good hybrid. I just genuinely think that's the way it should be done For a lot of reasons. Even if you can do it with AI, I would rather capture it live. You're never going to get that again, ever. You got that one moment in time. Grab it Because that's it, yeah. And then you get the expression of the actors doing it. And most people don't understand is I'm a huge fan of studs and I love the way stud players play, shout out, absolutely. Camry bruder was fantastic. All those stunt people on this were just awesome.
Speaker 1:Yeah we had a bunch great. Yeah, we had a ton.
Speaker 2:They were just incredible and really lovely people, really nice and just easy to work with. Uh, they did a great job and they put a lot of effort into they just did a great job and they put a lot of effort into it. They just did a great job. The thing about that is that that is an art. Stunts are an art. In a movie, they're crafted to create a tone, create an experience, tell a story and to get you in a place of euphoria. That's part of the art, that's part of the design.
Speaker 2:People who are actually doing it are crafting it aesthetically for the camera and they're also trying to make it. You know, realistic simultaneously, which is tricky. You know it takes a lot of training, just practice and things like that. But that also depends on how you capture it. You know, compositionally, how you did the lighting, how you're using the camera, how you choreograph it with the actual stunt, rather than just documenting a stunt which I genuinely think a lot of people do in modern cinema that you can choreograph it with the camera and the edit, and I really am a big fan of choreography between the relationship between the camera, the light, the edit and the stunt. To me, that's all telling the story and I think you can do that artistically on so many levels. We've seen it done before.
Speaker 2:So that was kind of a an approach, especially with the car chase, because it was such a limited amount of time. It's never in, it's not terribly long, which a lot of action sequences aren't, which is interesting. Um, otherwise, I think you you run into a lot of diminishing returns. If something gets too saturated, it loses its under power, the, the thing that drives it, it's kinetic energy that dies. Because it's a diminishing return, it's over, it's overdone, it's best when it's done in doses. So it creates kind of a parabola of reward and experience and something that becomes surprising and it doesn't become too familiar. You don't want that kind of stuff to be familiar, you want it to be a surprise and I genuinely think stunts and that kind of stuff should be a choice. But going back to this, I know we got segue, um, I I honestly think the most difficult stuff really was trying to get certain things with blue screen and green screen, um, wrapping your head around that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, trying to get that stuff correct On the day that you mentioned, with what's called the octagon.
Speaker 2:I call it the octagon, we always call it that.
Speaker 1:So when you were shooting, you had to basically shoot a mirror image right Like of each side.
Speaker 2:For the most part, yeah, yeah, I mean, we basically mapped it out. I worked with um combination between um the visual effects, um uh technician who's on set, and then the, the continuity person.
Speaker 1:I still have a map actually.
Speaker 2:Uh. So we kind of said we need to to do this, this and this, and I need you to show me, okay, so we can choreograph how they're going to shoot each other. Which leads me to understanding how I'm going to cut it. I had already a pretty good preconceived idea on what to do and what to shoot very clearly, but it was the idea of blocking it to make sure it would add up in the edit in my head, because when I'm making a film, I already have it a very good portion of it edited in my skull and when I see a shot, I'll see like 10 seconds of it that I'm going to use, that I'm not going to use the rest of it. So I know exactly. I'm already know what I'm going to use and I already know what I'm going to throw up, because it's already edited half the time. Other times I'm like, okay, well, where is this going? But most of the time it's relatively glued together in my brain. You know it's in my, in my, in my noodle.
Speaker 1:The perks of all that?
Speaker 2:yeah, it's like, yeah, well, it's kind of like I, it's kind of like, um, orchestra, you write a composition and you have all these notes and you have all this stuff and it's all there until the orchestra, until the, you know, until the performers come in and play it. So different, different type of thing, but it's very similar in that respect, especially with the edit. The edit is a big deal. So getting that choreographed, making sure the blocking was right, making sure the shots that I actually picked, I knew I could probably cut with and say, okay, that's going to work, this is going to work, these islands will work, this is going to work.
Speaker 2:And then having and making sure that there was this type of chaos, which was great and that was the best part. There was a certain kind of chaos which it should be. A situation like that calls for it. It's not, you know, even though it has this very stylistic, controlled approach to the way the action happens. It's chaos, you know, and that was the cool part of it, but we did map it out, we looked at it and then the set was uh, they, the production, people, production design people, art, art department they all worked really hard to get that thing, you know to do it with like a rotating set that could be done in multiple sections without having to build too much, because I mean we had limited resources. Yeah, we couldn't just do this huge thing and we didn't have the money for that, and so, cleverly, the space we didn't even have, the space.
Speaker 1:We didn't know for the listeners. It's like we, we, we turned 13 000 square foot place warehouse into basically a studio and we built how many sets inside this studio.
Speaker 2:I, I, I could count them. I want to go back and eight or nine or more, at least way more than that, maybe more than that.
Speaker 1:So like we would shoot one set and then we'd have way more than that down. And then, uh, art department would go and build the, the set that we're shooting, like three days later.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and shout out to the art department from you know julian and jesse to fletch and all those and yeah, and all those people put in a lot of hours nuts.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, they did a really good job trying to make something happen aesthetically beautiful, uh, with nothing, with. Well, they had things, but it wasn't a lot and they had to be very creative with it and also to just say what does he, he want? You know, as a director, like, what does he like? I mean, I was relatively pretty good, but they kind of rolled with it a certain way and they came up with a very good matter of fact, they all came up with really clever problem-solving ideas to make these things reality, which is the key.
Speaker 2:I think it isn't just art that happens in production, design and art department, it's also problems. But once again, I'm going back to that, those two words problem solving that comes up with very creative solutions and I noticed a lot of that because you know you were kind of forced in that position anyway, economically. And secondly, you know it sharpens up everything and because of that they they contributed this wonderful, like you know, ability to manipulate all these different sets and use whatever's left and nothing pretty much got wasted really, yeah, which is great and um I remember walking in one day and, um, jesse, who's our?
Speaker 1:he was building all the sets and I walk in, I I'm like I have good news, he's not going to shoot, michael's not going to shoot this wall, this entire wall, so you don't have to do anything to it. And he was like, oh my God, that saves me so much time.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:It's like being economical and creative, you know, and spending the money on what is on screen. You know, correct, and that was another thing.
Speaker 2:Creative you know and right, and spending the money on what is on screen, you know, correct, and that was another thing. That's why I pre-visualized so much. I used a cine tracer program. I, you know, I brought in a storyboard artist. Uh, jason did a really good job on the storyboards early on. And then I used cine tracer, which came out shortly thereafter, was very it was around but it wasn't fully functional in the way that I wanted to use it. But it became that and just memorizing and creating shot lists and all that stuff.
Speaker 2:But all that stuff came into focus because it helps you say, well, we're not going to shoot in that direction anyway, so don't even worry about it. It's the same thing with the edit. Well, we don't need that much time, I only need 10 seconds, don't worry about it. Now some people would say, well, you should have a little bit more than less sometimes when you're doing the editing for it. But it was pretty well pre-visualized in a lot of respects there was more. I actually cut more footage. I didn't even use a very good portion of some of this footage for certain scenes like cut scenes. Well, the movie's getting too long, that was part of it. But you know, that's the reality of it. You don't have to build everything. You choreograph what it is that you're going to shoot, pre-visualize it. Now, it's nice to have everything because then if you go on set, you can kind of like improvise a little bit, which I strongly encourage with filmmakers. Anyway, it's good to be improvisational. Did I say that correctly? I think so, improvisational.
Speaker 1:Fucking improvisational. So anyway, yeah well, I was gonna say I remember the first day of shooting the shot in this little set that was built and it's meant to replicate an air shaft yeah, absolutely don't tell them how it was done, though don't let the audience know, I'm just kidding, but Aug was just like he's like. This is incredible that it's so realistic, like it looks. It looks like an air shaft.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:And he was like this is so nice because I don't have to imagine. You know I'm not staring at a green. You know tennis ball, you know it's like this is yeah.
Speaker 2:So what Christina said once. Once she said that are we in a green box today? Yeah, yeah, we are okay, I can have that done.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah so it's like there is a difference because you know it's I think it does as an actor myself. It's like it was. It's nice to be able to, you know, uh, take in your surroundings and let it inform your your performance, um, but it was really cool. You know we did so much in such a and let it inform your performance, but it was really cool. You know we did so much in such a small space. It's pretty incredible.
Speaker 2:Well, you try to use the environment to your advantage as well, which we did. We used the outside, we used the wall there, we used this, anything, and everything was used. Yeah, it just shows. You know haste and waste are two things, which is something we couldn't afford. It's nice to have the option to go and improvise on set when you have this massive set and you can kind of play around. Plus, it's also why would I, why would you, in general, have a huge set built if you're already going to only shoot seven or eight shots that are in a particular direction and the quarry is at a certain place? Like, have a huge set built if you're already going to only shoot seven or eight shots that are in a particular direction and the query rash a certain place, why would you build the other stuff? It's a waste. Now, the option is nice. Well, what if you change your mind? Well, of course you can change your mind, but if you stick into that, you don't need all that other stuff, and I think that's economizing and I think it's intelligent to economize and think outside of that, especially with how you see your edit. But you got to remember I'm also an editor, so, as an editor.
Speaker 2:Not everybody's an editor. You know what I mean. A lot of directors aren't. They go to their, they have a relationship with somebody that they delegate that to who's really good, better at it than they are, and or maybe they are, maybe it's just they aren't, maybe it's just they don't want to do it. It's irrelevant, but the point being is that not everybody does that. They don't go on a set and think like that. They get the shot if they give direction or pointers or they choreograph something or they do blocking. That's between them and the cast. And then there's also the artistic side of it. But the edit is different to both. Have the DP hat, the editorial hat and director hat to me is my process. That's how I've always done it since I was a little kid, and it makes sense to me the most because I see it and I can achieve it technically. So I'm like, okay, if I want to do something really ambitious, you've got to know how to pull it off.
Speaker 1:And if you have no money.
Speaker 2:You've got to really know how to fucking pull it off with no money, and that requires a lot of like. You have no money. You got to really know how to fucking pull it off with no money, and that requires a lot of like. You have to really think it through and then you have to make a choice on whether can you do this, Do you have this particular gear, or do you have this way of doing it? How does it fit in and how much time are you going to use it for when you're at it? Yeah, you know what I mean. You don't need to. In my experience, you don't need a ton of things like that in a mise-en-scene or a cut. You just need little clippets of it, so you know you're going to cut it down anyway.
Speaker 2:So it doesn't matter, and so that's how I see it. And it's the same thing with the sets, it's the same with the production design which they all kind of were on that vibe, I think. I think they all kind of understood that pretty well. And then that was it, and we used what we had and we did discuss these things, and these things were kind of discussed Not ad nauseum, but quite a bit, and then everybody just kind of rolled with it based on the limitations we had, especially with COVID. Covid was very difficult.
Speaker 1:COVID was a gigantic wrench in this whole thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it cuts off your accessibility to all kinds of things and it's also extravagant and cost. Yeah, I mean it's so expensive, but it puts a temporary.
Speaker 1:We had a very limited, small, and we're a small indie film production company. This is a completely independent film. This is not a small movie though it's not a small movie, but it's like we did. We did a, we did a lot with what we had available to us a lot I'm really proud of you know good you know, it's like you know, I I mean me too.
Speaker 2:I mean, I worked tirelessly for like two and a half years straight, I think. I averaged somewhere between 70 and 100 hours a week on average for a long time. I don't even know what a holiday is. What the fuck is a holiday?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you know it doesn't matter and at the end of the day, that's kind of what you have to do when you do something of this scope. And on top of that we just you know, there's just certain things that is uncharted territory. When you have limitations and you're trying to put it together like the visual effects supervisor that's that was a big thing and the post-production supervisor, those two things are very difficult, especially when you're doing the media management yourself and you don't have someone doing that for you. Now I did have some administrative help um, gramos and charlie and stuff like that. They helped me with certain things, but overall I had to manage all this media and also provide assets and build things and get things prepped, and it's difficult. So all that stuff kind of factors in.
Speaker 2:If you don't do that, the scope of something like this is not possible. It's the same thing with previsualization. This is why storyboarding, especially when you're doing a science fiction, action genre film that is highly stylized this is a very stylized picture you have to do this, otherwise you're're gonna get lost. You have to have that trajectory. You're not gonna know what you're paying for, and so on and so forth. And adding green screen is not a big deal.
Speaker 2:There were times we're like, okay, we need more of that and more of this, and I'm like, yeah, we're gonna have a lot. That's okay. That's kind of kind of the nature of the beast and that's okay and it and that's how it just turned out to be. But the scope of the film is, you know, I'd hope, and I hope people who watch it, considering how little money was put into it, watch it and go yeah, that's a fucking ride, dude, that's a lot of shit in the movie. You know what I mean. Like that's a lot of shit. Holy fuck, you have all that shit. Well, it's like you know, we want people to you know, at least when want people to.
Speaker 1:You know, at least when I was growing up, I'm sure you had the same experience. I think it's pretty universal for people that are in this industry, where they grew up watching films, and occasionally you'd have this thought of you know either, yeah, I want to do that, but then it's different when it's um, I could do that, you know I could do that. Different when it's um, I could do that, you know I could do that if they did that like I could do that, you know, and so yeah, I, I don't, I can't subscribe to the idea that it can't be done.
Speaker 2:I just can't.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's, that's a deck, is that right?
Speaker 2:did. I just say I can't subscribe the idea of can't? That's fucking funny. Um so, anyway, I won't subscribe to the idea of can't.
Speaker 1:That's fucking funny.
Speaker 2:So anyway I won't subscribe to can't. How's that sound?
Speaker 2:So, anyway, what I'm saying is hey, you know, this is a big scope movie. There is a I mean, there's a method, to a certain level of madness that exists with these kinds of especially with the way it works. And some people say, well, okay, you're crazy. Yeah, perhaps I'm crazy, but long story short, there's a logic to it and there are things, there are limitations, but that comes from the experience and beating your head up against a brick wall for years and getting shit kicked out of you for it. And so, long story short. That comes with experimentation and that comes with just shooting something. It doesn't matter whether it's going to work or not, try it it doesn't fucking matter just shoot it.
Speaker 2:That's how it's always been for me, since I was like 13 years old. I just want to get that shot, I want that in the movie and to technically pull it off. How can that be done? Um, and I am a big fan though. I love the aesthetic art film from Tarkovsky all the way to, you know, david Lynch, or I mean I can name dozens of great filmmakers that don't do spectacle on this level. They do spectacle, but it's more even-keeled in a sense, where it's about the philosophical undertones of the Mise en Scene or the story, which this movie does have I just happen to really enjoy.
Speaker 2:I love big spectacle in a film. It's exciting. I like big sound, I like, I like all of that. Personally, I like big, I do like car chases, I do like action, it's rad. Yeah, kineticism in cinemas is amazing, and that is part of cinema.
Speaker 2:You know, it's hard to want to do, or to desire to do something like that. When you it's, it's a combination of intimidation because, well, how the fuck people are with no money, right? And then how do you put something together that actually works for the story, because if you have too much of the other, then there's no story there's no subtext, there's no aesthetic philosophy that's or a theme that's going through to tell the arc or the meaning of the story. Because meaning is very important, story is very important, emotions are very important. The three-dimensional outline of a human character being re-represented into a fictitious environment is very important. All those things contribute to that. But putting it into the narrative of a genre like action and science fiction. There's a lot of science fiction films actually that are made on a very low budget and they're beautifully done. I could name a handful of them just incredible movies. They don't have action in them, but they rely heavily on very beautiful locations. Some CG, some CG, some elements, but mostly they're dramatic, they're dramas or they're exploratory into a philosophy, an idea or a scientific concept. They're speculative fiction.
Speaker 2:Speculative science fiction, which is the idea of what's happening in the future, questioning things about our reality, questioning things about our technology. Who are we all that stuff? Kind of factors, things about our reality, questioning things about our technology, who are we, all that stuff. Then you get a movie like the Matrix, which is a fucking wall-to-wall action, just bonanza. It's fucking rad and everyone knows it's rad because it takes everything you love about all these different crazy-ass genres in American cinema and world cinema and throws it into this kind of beautiful narrative and brings the big ideas and brings some of that art and throws it into this kind of beautiful narrative and brings the big ideas and brings some of that art and throws it into this very complicated action movie which is dope. And so you have that.
Speaker 2:It's the same thing with fury road, um, fury road. You know, whether you see it or not, it's actually a science fiction movie. All of mad max is science fiction. It's the speculative future about the apocalypse of what led to the collapse of society and how do people basically adapt accordingly? And then you have that classic Ronin story or that broken hero story that goes in and either survives it or tries to find some meaning within all that insanity and suffering, to find some meaning within all that insanity and suffering. So, but it's still, make no mistake, it's very much built on science fiction and it's driven by action, and I personally it's the same thing with james cameron movies or you know even spielberg films.
Speaker 2:You know action is a big thing and it's a lot of fun to do, but it's also very intimidating to do and you're so limited and you really kind of have to be very creative with it. So I don't I can understand why, like most indie films don't really go in that direction. Now some b movies do. They'll spend a bunch of money on like the car chase or whatever, and then you know, you know the story's kind of like on the back seat, whereas a lot of indie films they really put the story or at least the human connection part or maybe the theme in the front seat, because that's what you got trying to do. The scope is too difficult. Anyway, most of the time it just is yeah, so you are not forced.
Speaker 2:You veer off into a direction to tell more of a subjective tone that's simplified in this beautiful world, using locations and other things at to your advantage to tell your story, like throwing in a fucking car chase, or you know um do you think? There's a shit, good luck.
Speaker 1:I think it's, it's hard, I think it's you think it's now you can, but you know, do you think it's fear that they are not willing to entertain the idea of trying to do something? I don't know, I don't.
Speaker 2:Possibly. It depends on each one's motivation. Everyone's a unique individual, so other people have their reasons. Some people just don't want to do it, it's not their cup of tea. A lot of people just don't like that stuff. I actually think there are some people, you know, I mean it is what it is. I mean some people think that action is lowbrow. I fucking disagree. 100, 000, one, whatever billion percent.
Speaker 2:Action is an art form and action filmmaking is done beautifully is an art form. Sure, it's very entertaining. You don't need a huge attention span to get through it versus watching something like the stalker from tarkovsky, which is basically slow motion yeah, it's a Slow motion delve into a philosophy of his mind and his perspective of reality and what that means, with the influences of where he lived, which was the USSR. So he did that through this slow process. Miller comes in and does it with this unbelievably fast experience and they're both equally aesthetically valuable. They're just different. So some people don't like doing that, they just don't like it, it's not their cup of tea. And then some people fucking love it. And then there's some people who are like I haven't tried it, I'd like to try it. That's pretty cool. You know what I mean. So it depends on the person. Yes, some people might be today.
Speaker 2:I genuinely don't entirely subscribe to that idea for one reason because if you really want to do something as a filmmaker, you'll figure it out. You'll figure something out whether you're going to use cg or whatever you're going to do. Uh, a very all filmmakers, in my opinion, are ambitious anyway. They just that's innate. You can't not be a director and not be ambitious. The whole point is to try and get a story that nobody else has heard except you want to tell that story or that idea and you are going in that direction because you're just you have to. That's ambition, honestly, you know. I mean it's also vision, it's also excitement, but it it stems from that has to be done. So I genuinely think that any person out there who's a filmmaker who wants to do that, they will figure out a way to do it.
Speaker 2:Now it might go on hiatus for a minute, because it does require money and some of these films just cannot be told with low budgets. They just can't. It's not realistic. You need resources, you need people, you need crew, you need collaboration with a post house, whatever. All that stuff needs to come together and it costs money, labor and time and people's lives. Or today, people need to make a living and they're also, you know, working on these things, and that's just the reality of it. That's the economic side of it. You know, in this, you know market-based economy, so you're dealing with those kinds of aspects and that kind of deters people. I think, more so than the fear of doing it. I think it's really more of an economic thing. I think it's people going well we really can't afford it yeah.
Speaker 2:I think that's most of the time, unless you can come up with a very creative way to do it and aesthetically bring it into your story see, I think that's the, that that's a really important point.
Speaker 1:It's like, you know, I think I think there's um in the indie world, um, there's, I think there's some sort of lack of vision where, you know people are chasing this, this algorithm. You know it's like they this, this algorithm. You know it's like they want to chase what, what is popular right now, and by the time their film comes out, it's no longer it's old hat. You know, it's like there's already 10 other movies out there that are like it. And so, having the vision to tell the story that only you can tell, you know it's like nobody else could tell this story the way that you told it, you know but and the reason we were able to pull off what I believe is an extraordinary feat um is because of your vision.
Speaker 1:Do you think that that you, that you as, let's say, this was your first project do you think that you could have pulled off this film?
Speaker 2:not at this scope. I mean, maybe it's no experience.
Speaker 2:Right, I would have gotten it done. It would have gotten done. Yeah, first or second, it doesn't matter, I still would have done it. That's true. Yeah, I absolutely would have done it. Yeah, and I don't know if it would have formula. I don't know if the movie looked the way it is today, but it looked. It would just be different. Yeah, it'd probably be. I don't know if it'd be less of a film or more of a film. I just don't think it would be this film for sure. But yeah, I would have done it. Yeah, sure, yeah, of course I believe that?
Speaker 1:I do believe, of course, dude, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 2:Show must go on there. You know what I'm saying you gotta just do it, yep and it sounds fucking stupid it sounds like a. Sounds like a. I just sounded like nike commercial just do it, just do it.
Speaker 1:I'm thankful that we made it when we made it, you know, because if we had made this when we originally were trying to get it made, you know, 10 years, 15 years ago, well I don't think we would have the same resources.
Speaker 2:I don't think it would be the same movie, even technologically.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't think it would have been a cyberpunk fiasco but it wasn't written to be fully cyberpunk, so I don't think it would have been hamstrung by nearly the kind of demands that were placed on it this round. Because of the, because of the accessibility to cheap software, more people working in this world, you have overseas, you have accessibility to everyone and including yourself. You can do it as a generalist and there's a lot of ways and problem solving and fixes that you can do, even when you're dealing with software that is available now, that wasn't really readily available or the bugs weren't ironed out back then, plus computer power wasn't the same. I mean, I'm working on a pretty powerful box at this point that I made for this picture.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that was not available 10 years ago, not this kind of power, I mean, otherwise you would have. You could have had it customized back 10, 15 years ago, but that would have costed 10, you know, tens of thousands at home. Yeah, today you can, basically you can do that. I think um, I mean, there was, there was computer power, realism like this, yeah, what are you getting is?
Speaker 2:64. Yeah, sure, sure, uh, it is an amd 32 core thread ripper which did well, runs hot, but it's good, uh, and then I'm working on, you know, a primary 4090 liquid cool, everything's liquid cool. Uh 4090 gpu, which I don't think I would have been able to pull this off without it, and then you know about 200, almost 200 gigs of RAM, terabytes and terabytes and terabytes of fucking data, data, and you know all that stuff and that's one box. That's not even a render farm, you know, but it did make a significant difference and it's still slow for me. Like it should be faster. I love fast. I like instant, like don't, don't, no, don't think, don't. I don't want to see the wheel spinning on the screen. It's fucking hurry up. You know what I'm saying, that it's been like that or that it's about to crash.
Speaker 2:It's never changed, though. It's never changed, it's all um. It's almost laws of thermodynamics based on what you can and cannot do on binary systems, and so it's always been this way. We add more data slows things down. We add more data slows things down. We build more gps, blah, blah, blah. It's just endless cycle of bullshit that has been going on for a long time and I'm like, yeah, it's never fast enough. It's never fast enough until we get into qubit computing. It's never going to be fast enough, faster. That's just the way it is. There's always that aspect to it, but it's still a very powerful machine.
Speaker 2:I don't think, with this capability, even with the amount of time, the amount of hours that it takes to sit there and do all this shit, which took two plus years, I had a good machine, but you still need more people. You need more rendering, all that stuff. Rendering wasn't so much of an issue really. That was the good side of it. What became an issue? Honestly and I'll say this to anyone who's planning on doing any kind of visual effects, make sure that if you've got a drive, make sure you're hooked up to. I would strongly recommend a RAID, and I mean a RAID that plugs into your motherboard, not a plug-in box RAID like what a lot of people use, if you can, and make sure the write time is astronomically fast. And make sure, if you can and you can afford it, do it on a flash and then back it up on a hard disk at all times, simply, or a cloud or both, actually both. But because the speed at which it writes and the speed at which it talks to your software is actually one of the most important features of functionality on any kind of software, whether it's After Effects, nuke, blender, it's the communication between the files.
Speaker 2:And since this was shot basically in almost 8K and brought down to a 4K format, it was actually 7K anamorphic we actually shot anamorphic lenses which stretched the image and then to bring it back and it brings it into the 6x5 setting that's in the RED cameras, and we shot it with the monster, the monster lens. Let's give me a sensor. So, long story short, all that stuff kind of goes in and that's what's. That's what can slow things down. If you have raw files which is fine, they're great to work with um, those are things that can slow things down. Now, I mean, some people work on proxies. I I don't really I've always worked raw, so pretty much I should have reason for that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I just don't have the patience to render all that shit out. You can call it lazy, I don't think it's lazy, I just want to get to it and the computer program and the stuff I use is strong enough to be able to handle it. I mean, proxies are great when you're streamlining things. Once again, you've got multiple editors, you're doing a television series, you're doing a really big project, you get somebody to render out, you pay someone to render out proxies for you, or you have a software system doing it and then that comes in and then you just swap the proxies so long as they match up with the original service.
Speaker 2:I prefer to work with the red, since I'm directly involved with color grading, so I need to experiment with what it actually looks like. That's another reason why I work directly with the footage, because I experiment with color grades while I'm cutting and I want to experiment with color rates based on the science that's inherent in the r3d files, not a proxy. That is compressed and it's at 8-bit color. I need to be able to experiment with color grades at a 32-bit color scheme period and at all times. And proxies unless you're doing 16-bit proxies usually are compressed. They're small and they're 8-bit. They're not usual.
Speaker 1:I mean some people go to ProRes.
Speaker 2:They'll do intermediates all the time. A lot of people do that. They do EXRs, they do intermediates, but they can still be big files regardless, even if intermediates but they can still be big files regardless. Even if you do a really high quality ProRes intermediate, they'll still slow you down, they'll be smaller than the other ones and they can speed things up. But again, in this day and age, with the power of computers and the right times, you don't necessarily need to totally worry about that as much as it used to be you know what.
Speaker 2:I mean, but again it's better for a streamlined, massive process. That's when it becomes kind of necessity.
Speaker 1:Well, talking about streamlining, I came across and I'm going to get your opinion on this, sure. So I came across a AI assistant editor that will ingest 400 clips at a time. Great, it will label them. It'll put them in individual bins.
Speaker 2:I've seen that. I started seeing that come into formulation recently.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so there's a program Again. There's no affiliation here or anything. I was just blown away by this.
Speaker 2:Are you blogging something right now, eddie AI? Hey Eddie, how you doing? There's no affiliation here or anything.
Speaker 1:I was just blown away by this and it's the first one I've seen, but it's called Eddie Eddie AI and uh, eddie, he's a, he's an assistant editor, you know, and and.
Speaker 2:Eddie the editor.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly. And Eddie the apprentice my mind I. I ingested some footage that I took a while back and the level of detail, that it would take to replicate what it did in five minutes, that's great.
Speaker 2:Or a couple hours of can it sync audio? Separate audio to um? That's a good question. That's a big thing right there syncing the audio, that's a good question yeah, I know you can, I know. I had to manually sync everything.
Speaker 1:I know that you can ask it to cull, so it'll take the best.
Speaker 2:It'll organize your bins and do all that stuff. What would be a huge advantage is if it can sync the raw audio with whatever files you're on. Perfectly Like, absolutely insane.
Speaker 1:I know it'll like say you have a clip that is, you know, you press record and then cut, cut, hold on. We got to reset. Something will automatically get rid of those for you, so you don't have to, you know uh that's cool, but I think it's, I think it's more.
Speaker 2:You know it's particularly I mean it's a media man. It's media management is what it is. I mean, that's what it is media. It's a. I mean it's a media.
Speaker 1:It's media management is what it is I mean it's a software, it's media, it's media management. That takes a long time.
Speaker 2:That took you a couple weeks to get it. Oh, more than that. I mean just syncing the audio took me a while Just syncing the grass with a pen and a mouse. You have to retake it, all kinds of things when you're doing that, but yes, it takes a long time. Medium-ass man is also something that happens anyway, especially when you're doing more. Let's say you do a drama and you're doing a drama and it's strictly pretty much your footage, unless you're doing some.
Speaker 2:Scott replacements here and there, or you're doing some set cleanup. I mean just cleanup. Doesn't know what that word means. It means getting rid of, like a coffee cup on the fucking floor or there's a a light that's there, or there's a reflection that's cleaned up, or maybe it's just something you don't like aesthetically and you just get rid of it and you just have somebody replace it with paint. They paint it out with something else that's still clean up.
Speaker 2:So long story short. Um, when you're doing primarily raw live footage, you're not, you don't have to be too concerned with that workflow, for you know you don't have to change it up. When you're doing visual effects, your workflow changes. Your media management changes gradually as you go from scene by scene and as you're getting things done. It just changes because you're bringing in new shots, you're rendering out new shots, you're doing new assets, so it changes the entire flow. So it's kind of an organic process most of the time, at least from my experience from when I was doing this picture. Part of that had to do with the fact that I had limitations on how many people I could bring on to assist me a lot of stuff or to work with me a lot of stuff and to create with me, and some of them, you know, not everybody's available at one time and blah, blah, blah and you have certain things pushed out being worked on by different parties and you have to put all that into it. So your media management changes. It has to be adaptable to that kind of process because it changes.
Speaker 2:Now if you're going back to the drama, let's say you shot I don't know, I'd say Enora. Enora actually has quite a bit going on in it, no-transcript. If it's just drama and you just have these shots, that is really just pretty much live footage. You can basically create your media management. It's streamlined, everything's synced up, it's ready to go and that's it. You just cut and then you have it streamlined for color grade afterwards or changes, but you're not adding, you're not replacing 70% of your footage with newly created footage. You're pretty much using what's there, unless you're doing visual effects. You're pretty much using what's there, unless you're doing visual effects. Like you're replacing a sky, you're putting a monitor in, like you're doing a screen replacement.
Speaker 2:You know you're cleaning up something or you did intentionally have a particular sequence that required visual effects, most of that streamlined from day one. So if you have a software that can create the first and then just adjust it accordingly, that's a hell of a tool, do you?
Speaker 1:see a future where AI can be. Obviously it's going to be extremely helpful for filmmakers who don't have a huge budget and they can make something that is on par with a studio, potentially.
Speaker 2:It depends on what it is Same access to you know the people will be able to do things with any kind of technology. It goes back to okay. So why am I watching your movie?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's really what it blows? Answer.
Speaker 2:Why are you telling the story? I know it sounds, it almost sounds bad. Not trying to be. Someone told me that before. Have I seen this before? And what the why should I?
Speaker 1:why should I?
Speaker 2:that's true. That's true. Why are you telling me this and what are you doing? That is different. That is yours. That is your individual eye, not someone's. What is your eye of the story? Not a software, not a person. What is your eye of the story and why are you doing this Really Now?
Speaker 1:some people say well, I want to make money.
Speaker 2:You want to make money. Just you know, go to Wall Street. Yeah, there's plenty of ways to make money out of that shit. But really, why the fuck are you telling a story? And it that shit? But really, why the fuck are you telling a story? And it sounds crazy to say it like that, but it's true, and have we seen this before?
Speaker 2:There's nothing wrong with seeing like technology enhance the ability to pull off things for a cheaper price right, because that's really what it boils down to. But there's also I'm a huge fan of organic also approaches. They are different and they always will be different. So, regardless of what tool you're using to tell, what is it you need to tell? That's the bigger question. Why are you telling it? What's your story? How does this move someone or you or what you're? That's what is the most important aspect of it.
Speaker 2:Now, when you're talking about the economic side of it, my concerns in regards to those things is I do care about human beings getting making sure that they make a living and that they have they could pay their rent when they're doing working in this kind of a world that is based on a market economy, and people do need to make a living, so I think a balance between the two is necessary at this time, unless you're doing it on your own, and that's it, I mean. I just genuinely think it goes back to. It's not about virtual intelligence being a factor as a software to assist a creative vision. It is the creative vision that matters anyway, and the story that matters. I genuinely, though, think that the more micromanaging you are of it, the more you're going to understand why you're telling your story. If you just let somebody else do it for you, you're pushing demo mode on a Casio. That's not really micromanaging, and telling the story in the way you really want to tell it. That's basically letting something else do it for you.
Speaker 2:There's one thing to have a collaboration with something. There's another thing to just not do anything, and I think the more specific you are with that tool, the more you'll hone the skill of using it to rely on your vision of it, not what it's going to do for you, and then that will ultimately be the advantage you get from that kind of a format. To be creative, yeah. How are you going to fine-tune it? I genuinely want to know exactly what the shot is, where the light is. For a reason there's a reason why I do that. There's a reason why I put the light should be there. There's a reason why there's a color, there's a reason why the camera's moving in a certain direction and there is absolutely a reason why it's framed a certain way and that requires oversight on a very significant level of detail.
Speaker 2:Now some people are like don't do all that, don't worry about that, and that's fine. That's my process and that's how I tell, that's how I do what I do, and there are other directors who do this. You know this is not unusual. Matter of fact. I would say that's the nitty gritty really getting into, you know, the intensity of doing a cinematic format and telling stories and telling ideas. So it doesn't matter really what tool it is I mean yes and no but it matters to the person who's doing it. What are you saying with your story? And you know why. Are we watching this and have we seen it before? My concern would be, um, which is what happens with a lot of cinema copycatting and complacency and stagnance, and that happens when people aren't being proactive physically. It's important to be physically involved with things.
Speaker 2:And there's an organic connection that happens with that. Plus it keeps you on your toes and I think complacency is the enemy of creativity.
Speaker 1:It is, and you can kind of feel it Like when you see a movie. You can feel it in its dna, you know there's something that's incredible about watching a film that is filmed either on location or, you know, on a uh a set right, the fact that it was filmed there and there was a bunch of people all that someone is giving a real performance you're getting yes performance you're capturing you're never going to get again.
Speaker 2:By the way, never have you working with actors. Actors are actors and crew. All their energy goes into it. People forget about that. There is actually a, there's a thing there. All that crazy energy that comes from the crew, comes from the development of it, comes from the conflict that happens when you're making it. That finds its way into the art. That's part of it. Yeah, like it or not, that is actually part of it. I wouldn't intentionally say, well, let's just make chaos for the sake of chaos, because we're making a chaotic movie, so let's make everything a shit show. Fuck, no. But point being is all that energy is a fact. Human body, the human energy, everything goes into the process and there's a struggle with that as well. You know, some people say, well, you don't have to suffer for art. And I said, well, sometimes art is fucking suffering.
Speaker 2:Sometimes sometimes it hurts, sometimes a painful process, and I think complacency and stagnance is absolutely the enemy of this process.
Speaker 2:I also think there are other psychological things that are the enemy. Deceptivity and being kind is a big deal, but you have to have conviction when people are doing these things. But going back to what you said, that's a really good point and I think the passion that people make and there's so many great artists and people who've made these films producers and directors, people on crew and stunt and the list goes on and on and actors and all that stuff is part of that process and they fight sometimes to do something special and that fight actually does have strain and stress and brutality. Sometimes it's tough because it's fucking hard and that comes out in the film. It really does and that's a good challenge. It's also actually part of the journey. It adds to who you are as a person, I believe.
Speaker 2:I think anyone who goes through something like that that's part of your memories, that's part of your life, because you only have a window of existence here in this temporary realm called reality. Yeah, you are born and you die. So what do you do in between? You sit in front of a computer, right, and then just drop dead, or are you going to go out and actually kinetically make it happen? I think a combo between the tools that you have and doing something like that create something special especially, especially, we were talking about like well, where is this coming from?
Speaker 2:why are you telling the story? If you have a passion to say something, say it. I do genuinely fall into the camp because I love entertaining films that have something to say. You know, I can name quite a few films that are incredible journeys, that have lots of action, lots of stuff, but they're also really deep and they have really interesting allegories.
Speaker 1:So they don't. It's just not black and white earlier.
Speaker 2:It's like yeah, well, look at the other thing. Yeah, there's blade runner, I mean, there's also, you know, I mean even star wars. It's quite a quite a drama, honestly. Um, you know lucas's also, you know, I mean even Star Wars. It's quite a quite a drama, honestly. You know, lucas had a great, you know intense vision that he kind of put into a more palatable perspective with this love of what he liked and what he saw from movies like his first one, thx, and you can see a lot of THX in Star Wars significantly. It's almost blatantly obvious. But it's brilliant the way he did it, because he had this vision for it and they put all this stuff together and all these people worked together and they created all these different things and he just went in there and just changed everything. And there's depth in that. And you can sit there and say, well, the dialogues wouldn't. So that's the world he created. Sure, it's not Billy Wilder, he. That's the world he created. Sure, it's not billy wilder. He didn't write, you know, ace in the hole or something. You know what I'm saying. You know it's not, um, you know it's not david mamet, but it's it's. You know, I can go down a list, but anyway, those are different approaches, different tools, different mediums, and so what you say with it is ultimately what matters. I just love.
Speaker 2:Personally, I know it's hard to make these films and I know people out there are making these things. There's a lot of stuff that goes involved. It isn't just technical or financial. There's also just relationships, all kinds of weird stuff that comes into putting something together. Some of that could be a nightmare to deal with. Sometimes it's not, but I think all that process is actually valuable. Sometimes it's not, but I think all that process is actually valuable, and I think having a hybrid mode to never get away from or to not don't get stuck into the void of complacency, regardless of what tool you use. You know what I mean. But make no mistake, the cast is the huge thing, and I'm going to go into this because I have to, because everyone who worked on this, all the cast members, were incredible. I'm really proud of what Sam did, what Steven did, linus, mina, christina, richard was fantastic, louis, all of them. I can't think of a single person that was amazing. I can't think of one person that wasn't on there.
Speaker 1:There's a scene that you had to cut out from the film Of course, and I was like damn you know, and it wasn't because of performance, it was it had nothing to do with it.
Speaker 2:It was simply because the movie was getting too long. And you know, to be fair, you know, I I like a long film. I like a long film, but this is a movie. I mean. Most science fiction action movies that are relatively studio spectacles are around two hours, two and a half, between two and 20, two and 20 usually, and that's kind of like what this movie is. And that was the approach Big scope, massive movie, as much as possible, and do something visually stimulating that represented every aspect of every layer and every part, esoterically and allegorically, of what this film is about, by pushing that envelope with technology and using that genre, which is, for me, I love working in science fiction action. It's fun, it's fucking fun.
Speaker 2:But it doesn't mean much if it's not weighted by character development, theme, depth, humanity, all those things and story. Now it doesn't really mean much. Now you could throw a bunch of beautiful noise on the screen, but if it doesn't have context and it doesn't have something that you have to say, that you must go out and tell this story, then I think it's going to get vapid Right, and that's usually what I'd like to call the word content. It is disposable. Yeah. Now there's a quote from Benjamin Franklin either write something worth reading or do something worth writing. I actually have that on my desk, yeah, and I think that is a very good philosophy on how to approach what it is that you want to do personally. Um, so those convictions, I think find them the way. So go back to the cast.
Speaker 1:That's a big thing in a movie, and it's been pretty cool for you as the writer and the director and it's always fun watching you say your shit. You're like, oh my god, yeah, and it's spectacular.
Speaker 2:Well, it is fun to see anyone say your lines, yeah, but it's really incredible when I see people do such hard work on preparing for their roles and doing what they had to do and actually making it more than what I expected. And I'll say that about Steven. I'll say that, and Steven was fantastic. Anybody who loves Steven he was fucking awesome in his movie.
Speaker 1:Linus was fucking awesome Like you've never seen him before.
Speaker 2:Dude, he's rad.
Speaker 1:They all are dude.
Speaker 2:I'm telling you they all are. I don't want to sit there like, oh well, you know this actor's awesome. This is what you know. I, I can't. I can't do that. Sam was fucking. I love them all. Louise's great richard is is fucking awesome and he does these little.
Speaker 2:yeah, he was a, he was a gem. We just ran into him, I know, and we just ran into him and he just he had such a he was. They were all so great set. They were such nice people and you know they just I'm really grateful we had those kinds of people walking around in this movie and I thanked them I'm seriously, including everyone who worked on it.
Speaker 1:You know, this was not even extras, that we had everything everything that went into it.
Speaker 2:It was not easy. This is not an easy project at all, and that was simply the shoot, and the shoot was only a short period of time. There's also development Most people don't really realize. It took forever to cast. I mean, neely and I were biting our fingers. Are we going to get this fucker cast? Is this going to justify a budget? Are we going to be able to get this made? Is it going to break? Is COVID going to destroy us At any moment? We could have went bankrupt.
Speaker 1:Well, I've used the analogy that that I. I use the cinematic analogy of being strapped to the conveyor belt, headed towards the bandsaw. And you know you're on this, this conveyor belt, and you know that because of covid, you're going to lose a, uh, an appendage. You just hope that it's not your head because, I can still, I can still walk with one arm, you know I can.
Speaker 2:Well, this is what I'm getting back with the cast. We were very fortunate like. Mina was fantastic. Where was that? Christina was totally. Everything worked out great. Everybody was there. They did their thing. They gave us more than I expected. They were friendly. Everybody was very sweet to each other. It was a big thing. It's a big deal. There's a lot of pressure, there's a lot of stress. That happens on movies. It is important.
Speaker 1:Nobody's perfect, especially when you have hard out days for your stuff yeah and you have yeah, and you have to shoot those days.
Speaker 2:You know, I mean I need to figure something out later, but you know anything's possible, I mean, but you know there's a lot of pressure for everyone when movies are being made and it's just part of the human experience of making them. Yeah, and um you know, we were very fortunate in a lot of respects that we had some really, really kind and very lovely people around. Honestly, you know especially given the insanity of the scope of what the movie really is.
Speaker 1:Going back to the uh, you know finding a way you know in when. Going back to the uh, you know finding a way, you know in when we were developing this, you know we had the, the, the phrase or not phrase we just have conversations of. Do you think we're going to be able to pull this off?
Speaker 2:oh, there's plenty of times, either one of us would respond we have to of course, yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2:I know you and I would always look at each other. Are we going to actually do it? Is this going to happen? I mean, no, seriously, that's right, I know you and I would always look at each other. Are we gonna actually do? It's just gonna? I mean, no, seriously, that's exactly how it is. We, especially with coven, we didn't know if we were even going to pull this off financially. I mean, there were so many different aspects to it that were problematic.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that always was it a good idea to shoot when we shot it.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I agree Absolutely there's no right time, there is no right time it doesn't exist.
Speaker 2:You either go or you don't, and movies are very difficult to get off the ground, they're very difficult to finance. I mean, it took years to fucking get this thing going. Years, years and failure, and so much failure and so much disappointment and so much work and time that went into just developing it.
Speaker 2:I spent two years putting a deal together that fell apart. Tons of hours went into this, multiple times and then multiple, you know, just doing the locations, everything you can think of, just doing promos and tons of rewriting, kinds of crazy. I mean just the whole trajectory of all that stuff.
Speaker 1:That's all part of that process so that you don't really do you either do it or you know.
Speaker 2:as they say, use it or lose it. Yeah, simple as that, man.
Speaker 1:Shit or get off the pot.
Speaker 2:Shit or get off the fucking pot and just go out there and fucking do it. End of story. Yeah, once again I'm starting to sound like a, like a shoot, sorry.
Speaker 1:And and I I want to tell the listeners that a a vulnerable moment that you and I had and you know we we had a moment within in pre-production, not pre pre-production in pre.
Speaker 2:Oh, I remember that.
Speaker 1:Yeah that we had a conversation where we both were like should we pull the plug on this thing Absolutely? And and I, we both were like should we pull the plug on this thing Absolutely? And I couldn't answer in that very moment. So I was like, hey, call me back in 15 minutes. And you called Neely and then I got a call from Neely saying you guys are fucking crazy, like of course you're doing this.
Speaker 1:And then, as soon as I heard her say that, and all credits are, you know, like that was a real turning point, because at that moment I was like, fuck yeah, we're doing it, we're going to do this.
Speaker 2:That's the thing about. That makes Neely invaluable and Neely has a mindset a lot of a producer, really, both the casting director but a producer. She'll just say Nope, we're just fuck that, we're just moving, let's go, let's go, no what?
Speaker 1:are you talking about? You guys are dead, it's life or death.
Speaker 2:Of course you're going to Damn the torpedoes Full speed ahead.
Speaker 1:And it's like, all right, let's do this, and it's so supercharged, it's great.
Speaker 2:I love supercharged a great, very I love that shit a very, very dark moment that we had. Yes, you know it's nihilistic, because the point it was very dark almost didn't happen, we almost didn't get made. Um, yeah, that was about it it really did.
Speaker 1:Here we are the film is done, done, done, done, it's done yeah I literally delivered it friday.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I just it. I did all the primary deliveries. It's done.
Speaker 2:It's really done, yeah, I mean, you know, like, and yeah, sure, I mean that year and it took months and months and months and months and months to get someone to come in, to get people to go. I believe in this or I like it, or this is going to work for me. You know, I mean between the financial and and creative side, it is difficult to go through the casting and and we almost didn't have this movie and the story and it really was a discussion like, okay, and I look at it well, I would rather fail gloriously trying, than not do it at all. Yeah, I seriously would. There's what's the? I mean dude, look at life, everyone that exists in it, okay, goes by in a blink of an eye.
Speaker 2:It really does no, yeah, it was a, it was a wild ride, really, that was intense because you basically had the, you know, a lot went into it and we already committed financially to certain aspects. That would have been a loss. Yeah, because there's paid people at that point and we just paid them out too.
Speaker 2:It's like well, you know how do you go back to them and say, uh, oh it sucks, but here's the reality, and I think everyone in town should know this. There's no such thing as a fucking guarantee, unless you put it in paper and you put money to them.
Speaker 1:That's another story, right and the actual guarantees can be made not be smart mostly mostly unless people don't have any capital for it.
Speaker 2:But long story short, I mean, dude, some of the best moves in the world took years to pull off. I mean, everyone knows that sometimes they just they don't happen. Deals fall apart, there's disagreements, there's schedule conflicts, there's a lot of variables that come into trying to put a fucking movie together and at the end of the day it's like, dude, you have a ton of adversity already because of that process. So it's not just getting your script, yeah sure, but trying to put all these different elements as a producer, which is something you and I both did, and we've done this with shorts. We've done this with ultra-low budget, like Interpreters, which is a completely ultra-low, $100,000 movie and to put all those things in place, you still have to coordinate it and it's very tricky. And when you're dealing with something of a much bigger budget, you're also dealing with more variables. You're dealing with agencies, you're dealing with tasks, you're dealing with schedules, you're dealing with conflicts, and you might also run into people who just don't like your script. You know, they just don't like it. I don't want to do this piece of shit. You know what I'm saying, for whatever reason.
Speaker 2:And then there are other things that happen. Oh, by the way, this person, it just isn't going to work out, or money falls through, or a studio changes hands and the entire lineup that was planned for the next three years has been completely torpedoed and changed by the new executives that just came in. No-transcript, so long as you commit and stay to it, it'll get you know. It can eventually get made. But there's still that's part of that process and anything and everything can go wrong. Anything, they're crazy. Making a movie is crazy. Making a movie during COVID is insane, but it was necessary because it was the only opportunity we had. It may not have ever come along ever again and then throughout life.
Speaker 2:You know, as people you know get somewhere in their age and they either get cancer, they die from natural causes or fucking car wreck. They might think at that blink of a moment damn it? Why didn't I fucking shoot that movie during covid? Right, it might, yeah you might have fucking regret. Sorry, I'm just potty mouth.
Speaker 1:This is a rather than a a footnote. This is a chapter in the book of your life.
Speaker 2:I think in a lot of respects. Sure, now some people go from one film to the next, sure, but all of those are experiences anyway. For us it's a little different because we spent so many years on it trying to put it together, so we have a different bond with it, especially considering I also wrote it and, you know, created the world and all that stuff. So all that stuff took years, but it still took years and disappointment and failure significantly, yeah, lots of it. Yeah, um challenge, and you know you're either going to stick with it or you won't. I think in your last podcast, persistence was a big thing, that it was his name, jason, is that correct?
Speaker 1:yes, he said resistance thing.
Speaker 2:Some people just quit. There's no such thing as failure.
Speaker 1:People just give up quit, yeah, they just give up, they just give up, and that's understandable.
Speaker 2:There's many times throughout my life I'm like I just want to go to an island and ignore the world. Yeah, never do any of this Ever and just I don't know play Starfield or something.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And pretend I'm not on this planet.
Speaker 1:Do you have a genuine pride in what you were able to accomplish? By delivering the film.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I worked really hard on it, so I'm really proud of the work I put in and I think, for what this movie is and what it originally was intended to be, I think it's it went above and beyond what I was expecting on every level and it tells exactly what I personally was trying to do as a filmmaker uh thematically, um, you know, visually and um philosophically, and I'm happy about that, very, very happy.
Speaker 1:I'm also extremely proud of the cast yeah, yeah, and I have to give a shout out to Alex Newport as well oh, he's great too.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, we can't the score is next level it's next level, alex Alice is great. It's rad he nailed it man, he crushed it, he really did it's fire.
Speaker 1:You wrote an original song for this. I did.
Speaker 2:Actually, so did Kiana. Kiana wrote one. Kiana did one called Eye for an Eye. She did one too. Yes, I did one Alice produced and then I yes, I did one with alice produced it and and it isn't the end credits and it is an alternative rock song called too much information and there's lyrics to it. It's cool and we got a music video that will complement it coming in the pipeline. There's a lot of stuff that went into this and there's also all these some cool twitch streamers that work, that worked on as well.
Speaker 1:I was going to say that we should highlight kind of our idea, our efforts to be able to reach a wide audience with this thing, Absolutely of course. Part of what we were able to realize really early on is an untapped resource of marketing. On is an untapped resource of marketing. Are you know these?
Speaker 1:uh, and now I think it's a little bit more you know like people are doing this a bit more, but tapping into the social media influencers and incorporating them into your film, and in a non-distracting way, but with the end goal that they have a massive audience.
Speaker 2:Sure sure, but what was interesting about that? Sorry to cut you off. No, go ahead and you finish your thought.
Speaker 1:I'm no, no go you're good.
Speaker 2:Um, so what I found with twitch uh, it was more of like an artistic discovery like this is very cyberpunk. This whole thing, this is very cyberpunk.
Speaker 1:I gotta I gotta I get into this.
Speaker 2:Like I gotta like meet some of these people and I have an idea. I mean I was originally going to do ads but I'm like this is very cyber punky. Let's get them to do the ads. They become the vehicle of the ads in this fictitious world, and it was. It totally makes sense, since we don't.
Speaker 2:Every brand that exists in this movie does not exist in this world, and so bringing the twitch streams in to represent those brands, whether it's a gun brand or you know what, like some kind of bizarre, you know energy drink or neuro enhancement, or you know cybertronic sexual enhancement ad or something strange, or or a corporation that's selling legal fees or legal advice, like a lawyer firm. There's one literally called SCT law. It's fucked law with a hand. That's funny. It was like talk to the hand. I mean it's almost on the nose. I mean there's actually. Uh, even the police department says erected force is a necessary good, which is totally a parallel with phallic expression. Yeah, so I'm making it's a joke, it's satirical, but anyway, the Twitch streamers came in. I'm like they're funny and a lot of them are satirical and they have this attitude and I loved it. I, I was like you guys are funny. It's almost, um, there's almost like this punk rock aspect to it. This I don't this degas kind of attitude in the stream world with twitchers and I'm a I love games.
Speaker 2:I'm a gamer, so meeting them was was actually a lot of fun. I really enjoyed meeting streamers and getting to know them and they were funny. I mean they had a and they naturally had no problem doing this kind of shit. It's great. They're totally comfortable. I mean they basically just give you complete access to their who. You know them for like hours. So going on a doing a little shoot with them for an ad that doesn't exist, for like a gun ad, it's no big deal and it's fun and it's super cybery, punky kind of shit and it fits right into the gamer model. It fits, I mean, it's totally like that tone.
Speaker 2:So it almost naturally kind of evolved into that and then I realized, yeah, this could also work for marketing because they'll, you know, they could spread the word. You know, spread the word about the movie because you know we want people to watch word. You know, spread the word about the movie Cause you know we want people to watch the picture. You know, a lot was put into it and I just financially, just in general, by a lot of people.
Speaker 1:That's something that Jason said. You know that uh, uh, uh, a, uh, a work of art ultimately becomes that work of art once it's observed. You know, and that is true, it's like if you made this to put up in your own collection.
Speaker 2:There isn't anything in this film. Tia did a great job with the costume. The costume stuff is a big part of that world. That all contributes and that's all part of that process and having people see everyone's work is a big deal. Same thing with Megan and her team Recreating that world that all represents. We want people to see all of this creativity and her team, you know you know recreating that world that all represents. You know you. We want people to see all of this creativity, all this stuff and this story in general. And it's the same with the cast, the same way they were. All that stuff went into it. So, of course, you know, I genuinely think there's a pretty good um audience out there, especially through, I think, the gamer world might like this um, if you like cyberpunk or if you like that kind of vibe, you like action and science fiction and big ideas and really good. I genuinely am biased, but good acting great acting humble, fantastic, like world-class World-class.
Speaker 1:Humble Fantastic, like world-class World-class.
Speaker 2:It's fucking world-class.
Speaker 1:Now, how did you? How did you approach the streamers?
Speaker 2:I just hit them up. Man, yeah, hey, what's up? Making a movie? It was that easy.
Speaker 1:Let's talk, let's be friends. That's what I do with this podcast. It's like I I see a filmmaker and I'm like hey, and then I look them up and I hit them up in their DMs.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I didn't know how far I would go. I developed honestly, I just became friends really. Yeah, that's fantastic. It was still. It was an idea that was coming to my head pretty quickly that I befriended somebody else who knew somebody else, who knew somebody else, and that's kind of how that started. It really started with honestly friendship. I'm not kidding. I befriended a couple of people on Twitch and I said, yeah, I'm working on this movie. What are you doing? I said, well, I have these ideas that I thought. I said you know it. I'm like, okay, cool, let's do it. And then I kind of the domino effect happened from there and then I just, you know, the door's open, it's fine, and you just have communication with people and get to meet them, and out of that some really cool relationships forged, which were pretty neat. I had some really wonderful experiences with several individuals that were quintessential with helping, quite a bit like charlie or dramos, you know, and um you know, and then uh and uh accordia is the one really kind of at first.
Speaker 2:You know these are different, these are their handles.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but long story short.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was great. And then Kiana came along and other people, kauai, casey, and there were a bunch of different people. It was cool, it worked out, we got it, we got the footage. So you know, and it was, yeah, it was pretty dope. So that was really what I did.
Speaker 2:Just like you with your podcast, you just go out. It's the same reason why, coming back to what we talked about with making a movie, you really want to do that. You'll figure out a way, do the best you can and try to have fun too. That's not always going to be the case. Trust me. I'm not going to say that doing posts in this was fun.
Speaker 2:There were moments of achievement that were satisfying. This was difficult. It was probably, for me, the hardest thing I've ever done in my entire life and I've done some pretty difficult things. So this was difficult. But I'm going back to what you said, and I hope you are, because you were a great producer and you were very supportive and you did a wonderful job, being emotionally supportive, especially, and Just being there when it was necessary and, you know, staying through with me. Not that I'm trying to turn this into it. Yeah, thank you, michael. So you know like um anyway, but uh, all that shit is uh part of that process and that achievement and I'm really happy, regardless of you know how difficult that sisyphus experience was, which was it was sisyphus it was, one must imagine.
Speaker 1:I mean honestly the whole new rock and smiling the entire time the post process was only a portion of that Sisyphus experience.
Speaker 2:It was. It goes back to 2008 and 2009, having multiple failed deals going forth and not getting it done and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah all kinds of pickups and issues. That's all part of rolling the rock up the hill and letting it come back down over and over and over and over again. I don't think I felt like the rock was actually at the top of the hill before it would go down. Until I think it was January 2nd of this year, I felt like this movie is not done.
Speaker 1:I don't know if it's ever going to get done.
Speaker 2:Is it going to get done? Didn't matter. That was the first shard of light I ever experienced on this film. Wow, when it came to completing it? Uh, because it was I remember that conversation. Yes, it was a big deal. Color gray was pretty much in place, shots were pretty much done.
Speaker 1:Now it was just finishing up the last of the sound over a period of a couple months, and that was it I was like, holy fuck the whole movie, everything's in, it's actually I remember the the phone call when you told me that all the and I did the color replacements or even like all the cg elements, like you don't have to build any more elements because you built how many it's great.
Speaker 2:At least 500, I think, somewhere between four and 600. Yeah, yeah, probably that's crazy dude. Little elements here and there, they're just little things, but they add up, and then I probably personally did around 700 shots, maybe 650 or something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was a lot and some of them were simple, and then I had to redo them. Some of them were redone. I also had to do Unreal Engine. I had to redo them. Some of them were redone. I also had to do Unreal Engine. I had to learn it. Yeah, so I can do all the plates. I had to create Unreal plates and Unreal realities, so I had to learn how to do Unreal Engine very quickly. Yeah, and that was tricky. Yeah, I didn't.
Speaker 2:I wasn't going to go in and sit there and make a video game out of it. I just needed it to give me exactly what I needed. So I only focused on what it can provide for what I needed. Otherwise I would have lost more time. So I had to isolate really in that process, okay, what am I going to concentrate on here? And that was it. But that was all part of that process and that took a while too. It took me a month and a half at least to get my bearings on Unreal, to create plates, and it was still limited. It still is to this day. But I have a pretty good, relatively broad understanding of it and it is very valuable.
Speaker 2:you know what I mean oh my god yeah, sure, I think that's where like virtual intelligence will start really helping is creating plates, things like that. Stuff like that will be very, very helpful. Yeah, volumetric kind of shooting things like that is really nice. I mean, some of them will replace it completely. Some people just say I don't need a set, don't need this, don't need that. Let's do this. And then next it will be holodecks, just like in Star Trek, if we survive that long.
Speaker 2:Great technology, but there's a lot of war in the world and death and destruction and shit, I don't know. Yeah, got to figure that stuff out. Poverty figure that shit out and maybe you'll have a holodeck in 200 years, maybe speaking, speaking of death.
Speaker 1:This is always my last question for the podcast, for all the guests, and I'm really curious to hear your answer. Is Hollywood dead?
Speaker 2:no, that's my answer and I'll go into it a little bit. If Hollywood was dead, there'd be no movies being set up over the next two years anyway. So no, logically, uh no, because everything in cinema, especially the, the dream factory that is hollywood, which has a legacy, it does, you know, I I think filmmaking is broad and it just so happens that the main ventricle of very big, high-finance filmmaking comes out of that region. But Hollywood isn't just a place, it's a combination of a piece of history and an idea that goes into building movies for people, whether it's television or movie. What I think is dead and it isn't cinema, because I relate Hollywood directly with cinema and I think there's multiple Hollywoods in the world the American Hollywood is, in my opinion, not dead at all. Matter of fact, I'd say it's kind of dormant and it's ripe for opportunity to do something different. Rather than you know and I'm not trying to be insulting here strip mining, nostalgia, and that's what people do these days. They strip mine some stuff. Now, some of it's really good, strip mining, there's some good shit out there. Then some of it is basically vapid and it's what I would like to call all too familiar A law of diminishing return and it's not driven by what we were talking about earlier, and I think hollywood has has had cycles of this. I think all filmmaking around the world is a cycle of this, and stories, so long as human beings exist, are told, regardless whether they're done in the format of a video game, whether they're done in the format of a video game, whether they're done in the format of two-dimensional storytelling like cinema, or the long-form series which is television or theater. So long as people are alive, they're going to rock out music, they're going to crank out stories and they're going to do it however they want to do it. And if there's a marketplace as it stands which these things change too, economics change over thousands of years that will be streamlined regardless and it still is industrialized.
Speaker 2:The question is is that, is Hollywood dead, or is the motivation behind doing something special dead? Or is the motivation behind doing something special dead? Or is the idea kind of in a coffin right now? You know to change it over, to create a new, like punch in the face. How the fuck do you punch people in the mouth with new shit? Yeah, period. You know what I mean. Whether it's a drama or whether it's an action film. It goes back to someone who told me once have you seen this before and why are you doing this? And I think that's what makes a great producer, honestly, is a person who actually asked those questions before. No matter what.
Speaker 2:Now, fact is, we also make films that go to an audience, and that's the reality of it, and they're the ones who also quote, unquote, pay for these things through that process, which helps finance things like this. Now, the advent of technology just makes certain things cheaper and it's still you're still giving it to an audience. So that in itself is an expression, is a tool of humanity. As long as humanity lives. Cinema's dead. Long live cinema. You know what I mean? Yep, and that's how I personally feel about it.
Speaker 2:I've seen this cycle multiple times. I think there are stagnants, I think there is complacency, but I also see an opportunity to go out there and kick some ass with it, and that sounds trite, but it's true, and I think people can go out there and do the stories they need to tell. I do think it's important to think of your audience. Um, if you want to be experimental, that's fine. Um, sometimes you don't have to think of your audience, that's cool. I love those movies too. There's an audience for everything. It just depends on how you can balance it with whatever you're economically given.
Speaker 2:But I genuinely think that right now it's like a cycle, and because there's so much saturation of media, there's a lot of noise. But, believe it or not, the water cooler effect is alive and well. It always has been. People talk about something if it catches their interest and they're in, they're inspired by it. It even gets through all that noise and um, that's the key is, where does something break that? And if you're going to do a movie, are you going to do something that we haven't seen? That's kind of exciting or unique or touches me or moves me, it takes me somewhere, and that, to me, is more important than any of the other stuff. So, going back to your question, no, the only thing I see that is dead is the over-reliance on strip mining, nostalgia and a launch of diminishing returns, of trying to copycat everything. That is beating a dead horse, and so that is the other side of that coin.
Speaker 2:The janus coin, yeah, and janus is the two-headed coin, by the way, yeah it, it's almost like Shiva Creation just dropped him, and that in itself represents the flow of creation in some respects, and so you see that everywhere. So what I see is oversaturation of something that is already dead because it's been beating a dead horse of trying to mimic something over and over again.
Speaker 2:And it doesn't hold an individual expression or a unique color of its own to stand out financially if somebody's paying for your movie, to go out and really touch, you know, inspire your audience, regardless of the genre, and just really be ambitious with it. You know and be you know. Obviously there's a fine line between ambition and being irresponsible.
Speaker 2:So you know, try to be the best person you can be while you do it. Nobody's perfect and that's it, and so that's how I feel about it. You know, and I've seen it in periods where I'm like, yeah, it sucks, things coming out suck, and then I'm like, damn, there's some good shit coming out. Everybody's had those moments with music, with everything, and it's trends that you know again have diminishing returns, and I think when that happens, it's time to okay, time to take some risks, time to do something.
Speaker 1:We need some new ideas, we need risk.
Speaker 2:Risk is part of that process. And I think producers and creators, and industry people, though it's everyone's a risk averse. Risk is the name of the game. It always has been. Life is already risky.
Speaker 1:Yeah, getting in a fucking car is risky.
Speaker 2:Getting in a plane is risky. Walking down the street can be risky. Hell. Just breathing air in a city is risky. It gives a shit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's why I think independent film is ripe right now.
Speaker 2:It is Well. Yeah, I actually think indie and, believe it or not, I actually think even studio filmmaking has an opportunity.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, they all do.
Speaker 2:I think all filmmaking, indie or studio alike has an opportunity to really push the door open once again and reinvigorate a cycle of almost like a baby renaissance of some sort. And I think that's how you know, it's the same thing and it creates kind of like this, this period of really awesome stuff, and then you know, then it kind of like tapers off and then something else happens and current events or certain things find them, you know usually. And here's another thing that influences really great art. It's kind of crazy. It's troubled times. We live in very trying times, turbulent.
Speaker 2:Turbulent yeah, socioeconomic and political times. Socioeconomic and political times.
Speaker 2:So that always drives people to express themselves. They're suffering, experiencing adversity in that particular type of history, and that sometimes tends to open up great expressions of human life and human ideas, and I think those find their way into the things that we, as children growing up, reading or watching or seeing are deeply inspired by, and that's one of the reasons why I do what I do. I was inspired by other people. They gave something to me that I'm like yeah, it's awesome, and you know, giving that back is a big deal. It's important to give that back on some level, so long as it's sincere to you and to your team of people you're making your project with. That. There's a sincerity in them.
Speaker 2:You know some people are going to manufacture stuff. It's as simple as that. And every once in a while you know I like junk food. You know, nothing wrong. Nothing wrong with a hostess cupcake.
Speaker 1:I really appreciate your perspective on that and your candor and I really appreciate this conversation.
Speaker 2:I always you know we've talked so many many, many, oh, dude, and thank you everything that you've done for this movie, tyler, thank you appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Thanks for having me on, I appreciate it really excited that we could have this conversation because you know it's like the film is done. Yes, we want, uh, you know, as more information comes out, I would. I would appreciate if people could follow us on social media. Uh, the dresden sun on instagram. Uh, you know, we're going to need you all to come out and watch this movie, uh, when it is released and you can get the updates on when and where it'll be released. You know, the goal is always to have some kind of a theatrical uh exposition, uh or expedite expedition and um exhibition you know that's like me with, uh, improvisational, yeah Hard time with that one I always have.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's um, you know it's a. It's a big deal for us to be able to share these stories with you, uh, as the listener, and um, you know, if you have any questions or anything like that, you know feel free to reach out. Um, you can archetype picturescom and there is a contact form on there with any questions. And, you know, stay tuned for the future of this film and and also the future of archetype pictures We've got some Make no mistakes.
Speaker 2:Yep, it's important. We have to plug our movie here. Yeah, I want, hey, we want, we want you to see it. We really do want you to see it.
Speaker 1:Um, you know yeah, I want to take you guys along for the ride absolutely thanks, tyler.
Speaker 2:I didn't mean to cut you off, but I just wanted to say that because it's being funny. But I really mean it we both want people to watch the film and we hope you get something out of it. I mean, yeah, you know, really there's some, really I genuinely there's some really cool shit, absolutely and I think you know, you know it is an 100 million dollar movie.
Speaker 1:It is an indie film with an indie budget I mean not a lot of money but it does not look like it, like I, we're not being, we're not exaggerating this point. You know this is a pretty extraordinary feat and I honestly think that it's something that other independent filmmakers, even you know, potentially some smaller studio filmmakers could really be inspired by watching, really be inspired, uh, by watching, and you know it's it's incredible.
Speaker 1:What was? What was, you know? Essentially, uh, achieved with this thing. So, and it's good cinema, it's a good movie. That's the first thing I told michael when I called him after watching it the first time. All the way through I was like this is a good movie. He's like right, do you remember that?
Speaker 2:yeah, I do, I, I I genuinely yeah, I do I, I actually think um, I don't know. You know, everybody has their own taste I I think it's actually.
Speaker 1:I actually think it's a good movie yeah, it's a good ride man, it's a good film, it's got some cool ideas, even if we didn't make it.
Speaker 2:Put it that way hell yeah and yeah, I think it's a I that's my opinion, um, and I'm sticking with it. You know there's going to be people. You know people don't. You know it's like with anything you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, You're not beer cup of tea, but I think it's pretty cool, yeah, and I really worked hard on it and a lot of people worked really hard on it and I can only be thankful for the fact that we even got it made and how much support and how much went into it by everyone that was involved. So absolutely I think, uh, I think, for for what it is I yeah, I do. I agree with you, Todd. Thanks, I actually think it's pretty good.
Speaker 1:You know we'll see, let's see what everybody else thinks. I don't know, I don't know what you guys will think I have no fucking clue. So we'll see. Hey, okay, so be it. Yeah, it's okay, it's not your cup of tea, but, uh, and also follow, follow this, uh, subscribe to this podcast, please, because, yes, there will be also more updates. So, thank you, michael, catch me on the flip side peace bro
